Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A575-W343
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A575-W343
Release
Date: October 10, 2010
发布日：2010年10月10日
Topic:
We Must Have Political Reform in China - Wei Jingsheng's Discussion and Answers
to Many TV/Radio/Internet Users in China on Voice of America's "Issues and
Opinions" Call-in Program
标题：必须在中国进行政治改革 -- 魏京生参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目，与众多中国和台湾的观众、听众及因特网用户们一起讨论政改与人权
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We
Must Have Political Reform in China - Wei Jingsheng's Discussion and Answers to
Many TV/Radio/Internet Users in China on Voice of America's "Issues and
Opinions" Call-in Program
On
October 4, 2010, Wei Jingsheng was invited to appear on Voice of America's
"Issues and Opinions" TV/Radio/Internet Program hosted by Zhi Yuan
regarding "the Political and Human Rights Issues in China during the More
than the 3 Decades of 'Economic Reform'". During the one-hour call-in program, Wei Jingsheng urged the
need for political reform in China and was greeted by enthusiastic
viewers/listerners/Internet users inside China with very positive responses.
The
one-hour long video of this program can be viewed at VOA's website:
http://www.voanews.com/chinese/video-audio/63537867.html
or
by visiting:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101004politicalreform1.mp4
and
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101004politicalreform2.mp4
The
following is the transcript of Wei Jingsheng's discussion with Host Zhi Yuan,
and Wei Jingsheng's answers to many viewers inside of China.
Host
Zhi Yuan: In the 30 years of
economic reform and opening up, China's economy has taken off with grown
wealth. What has changed with
people's rights to survive and develop?
Most recently, Premier Wen Jiabao talked about political reform again,
which is his sixth time this year.
The background and intention of the political reform Wen talked about
has aroused wide attention. This
time, we invited Wei Jingsheng, the chairman of the Overseas Chinese Democracy
Coalition and the head of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation to discuss the
issue. Wei Jingsheng was among the
first to demand political reforms, right after the Cultural Revolution. He also was a main person who
participated in the 1978-1980 Xidan Democracy Wall. He posted a "Fifth Modernization" poster, and
said, "There is no modernization without democracy." He also served as the chief editor for
the "Exploration" magazine.
China's
political reform has been delayed and sluggish for a long time. Thirty years of economic reform has
resulted in great improvement of China's economic status and growth of
wealth, but of course also some
problems. Some people got rich
first, accompanied by an increasing gap between rich and poor. Now we mainly talk about the status of
political reform. Can Mr. Wei
review the history back then, after the end of the Cultural Revolution and the
fall of the "Gang of Four", why there was an air for democracy?
Wei
Jingsheng: In fact, during the Cultural
Revolution, we all felt that this country was not well, because it was
undemocratic -- no one listened to the views of ordinary people, and the
leadership abused their power leading the whole country to extreme poverty. At that time, the main feeling was that
we were poor, life was not good, the gap between us and the international
community, especially Western countries, was growing. Thus, people were very dissatisfied. This dissatisfaction was mainly
reflected in economic terms, but of course also led to political aspects. Because China was undemocratic, a lot
of people were persecuted. So, we
had democratic demands. From 1976
to 1978, these thoughts rose higher and higher until the Democracy Wall
Movement appeared in 1978.
Zhi
Yuan: At that time, you put
forward the "Fifth Modernization", and said, "there is no
modernization without democracy."
Later, Deng Xiaoping also said that "there is no socialism without
democracy." What is the
difference?
Wei
Jingsheng: I wrote in my article that
there is no socialism without democracy.
That was according to Karl Marx: socialism itself should be a
democracy. But what about the
Socialism of the Communist Party?
It claims to be socialist, yet in fact there is no democracy but
one-party dictatorship. My this
question kicked the ball back to the Communist Party: You said it yourself, why
don't you cash it?
Zhi
Yuan: In 1980's, the ideological
trend was still relatively active, but then there was an anti-liberalization
campaign that followed until the 1989 democracy movement. Do you think the delay in the
implementation of political reform in China is because people started with
anti-profiteering and anti-corruption, and later on were against one-party
dictatorship, thus causing the government not to be willing to have political
reform?
Wei
Jingsheng: The fall of the
"Gang of Four" was a demarcation point in Chinese history. After they fell, we all wanted to have
a new politics. Regarding this new
politics, people thought differently. Ordinary people like us hoped for a democracy, so people's
rights would be protected. But the
Communist Party leaders thought about how to sustain their regime. Their principle was that it was
necessary to maintain the one-party system but to make some changes, thus
creating reform and opening up in the 1980's: that was the reform of the
economy, but not reform of politics.
In response to the demand of political reform in society, Deng Xiaoping
launched several political movements, such as "Eliminating Spiritual
Pollution", in an effort to strike against the democratic demands of the
people. That purpose was to
maintain one-party dictatorship, while still maintaining a relatively good
economic development.
Zhi
Yuan: So you think that from their
point of departure, China engaged in a "State Capitalism" (or
State-Controlled Market Economy)?
In comparison to a democratic market economy, the China mode was
stronger and developed faster?
Wei
Jingsheng: When we asked for
political reform, it included the need to achieve a democratic market economy,
learning from the good economic system of the West. The economic system must be guaranteed by a democratic
political system. If there was no
such guarantee, then it would be just like Hu Yaobang said: "Anything
changes its tone when it is in China." Indeed, many systems changed when they came to China. This re-interpretation is really due to
the political structure. I think
the economy is not an isolated thing.
It is closely related to the political system. You see all the economic development in China these years
and may say it was very quick indeed.
Yet, it was not really fast when compared with the early stages of
capitalism in the United States and United Kingdom. At that time, they search their own ways to move
forward. China readily uses the
experience of others. Because the
experience was readily available, progress should have been even faster. Why wasn't it faster? Why did it encounter so many setbacks,
including the more and more problems arising nowadays? The answer has a lot to do with the
political system of one-party dictatorship.
Zhi
Yuan: After 1989, the Chinese
government has emphasized maintaining stability. Nowadays, the government is spending so much money to
maintain stability, almost as much as its military spending. Do you think the Chinese government
really cares to have "stability overrides everything", or worries
that political reform will lead to chaos?
Wei
Jingsheng: Many things in China
should not be taken literally, but look at the background. Every society likes stability. When it is unstable, economic
development is not good, people do not have a comfortable living. However, the stability of China is not
that case. Now there are thieves
everywhere; even the luxury areas are attacked. This kind of life of course is unstable. There is a premise to the stability of
the Chinese Communist regime, that is to guarantee the stability of the
one-party authoritarian regime.
But
the authoritarian system is really one of the most unstable systems. In Western society, people have a good
life. Only a small number of
people are not satisfied, so naturally the society is relatively stable. But in China, most people live in
poverty with discontent. Do not
always say that people should be happy when they are fed. People may not be satisfied with enough
to eat. When the poor only have a
few hundred Yuan a month, and they see others with tens of thousands Yuan a
month, can you tell what it feels like in their heart? With widespread dissatisfaction in this
society, this society cannot be stable.
Zhi
Yuan: Premier Wen Jiabao recently
proposed to steadily promote China's political reform, what is your opinion on
this?
Wei
Jingsheng: It was said last year
that some folks, namely China's billionaires and some top influential people
with power, engaging in forming a political party in (semi-open) private. They talked about pursuing democracy. These people realize that if people are
not given a certain degree of freedom and human rights, this society cannot be
stable. It will become
increasingly unstable. In fact,
the situation in China is indeed so, more and more unstable. To wait until the outbreak of the
people overthrowing the regime is not as desirable as a peaceful evolution on
their own initiative. So they
strongly put forward the demand for a peaceful evolution. I think that Wen's speech may be
associated with this group of rich and rulers inside the Communist Party. But I have noticed that these people
are yet to be mainstream.
Zhi
Yuan: Recently, Wen Jiabao talked
about not only promoting economic reform, but also promoting political reform
while inspecting ShenZhen during the 30th anniversary of Economic Reform. He said: "Without the guarantee of
political reform, the achievements of economic reform could be lost even after
we achieved them; thus targets of modernization could not be
achieved." During the
reception before October 1, he said again that we must actively and steadily
push forward the political system.
Wei
Jingsheng: What Wen Jiabao said is
the lesson we all know in the process of 40 years of reform. The people in that party which for
political reform think: "Our reform is to maintain national
stability." "To have
reform, to have democracy, is to ensure our interests are not harmed.
" This is the prerequisite of
their willingness to make political reform.
Zhi
Yuan: Do you think there is a set
of specific strategies, guidelines, and procedures for the political reform he
proposed?
Wei
Jingsheng: It has been 40
years. Yet I think they are just
repeating the goal I was talking about back then. Goals only. At
that time, we had some specific contents, such as freedom of speech, in fact
the most important, and personal legal protection, also very important. But Wei Jiabao, etc. did not mention
freedoms and legal protection.
Many friends ask me: "Is there now any hope?" I think now indeed there is the desire
in a lot of people within the party.
So there is hope, but not too much, because the main stream officials
who are holding the power rarely have this idea.
__ __ __
After
the interview, many viewers, listeners, and Internet users called to ask
questions. Wei Jingsheng answered
each of them.
Mr.
Xu of Zhejiang: I am very
supportive of Mr. Wei. Your
pro-democracy movement in 1978 is helpful to overthrow the rule of Chinese
Communist Party. All these years
of crimes in China proved that the Chinese Communist government is not a
legitimate government of the country.
Mr.
Zhang of Hunan: I think the
fundamental problem of democracy in China is not the Communist Party. Of course, the ruling Communist China
is a problem, but the main reason is that the quality of people is relatively
low. From the 1989 democracy
movement, we could tell that there are few people demanding an end to one-party
dictatorship. People hold
portraits of Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai, and Hua Guofeng, against Deng Xiaoping's
economic reforms. Now from where I
am, many people wish to return to the Mao Zedong era, because they think it was
more fair. The so-called "no
problem of scarcity but an uneven distribution."
Wei
Jingsheng: What Mr. Zhang of Hunan
said is very representative: the issue of low quality of Chinese people. But we have to look at this low quality
issue from two aspects. Under the
authoritarian rule, sources of information are not enough, people do not know a
lot of things. This is quite
normal and is not the fault of the ordinary people. I think the Chinese people have been very good. Look at the mass movements other
countries engaged in. You do
not see them as polite, as civilized, with the same objectives as the Chinese
people have. In addition, that the
ordinary people are mainly for the economic demands is normal. For ordinary people, only when they are
having a poor life, will they not be satisfied.
Politics
is a very specialized field. Maybe
the Chinese people do not understand politics. In fact the Chinese have been more interested in politics than
Westerners, because the political situation in China is not good, yet is
related to the direct personal interests. In reality, the Western people do not know politics
either. Like any country,
everyone has one's own specialty, not everyone is a political expert. The goal of democracy is not to
make everyone into a political expert.
The power of democratic politics is to give the power to the people so that
they choose representatives they trust to engage in politics. Such people understand politics.
But
how to limit their behavior? This
requires a multi-party system. As
someone said, the Communist Party is not good. But if you let any one party rule, the result would be
similar. We must divide
politicians into different parties, so that they monitor each other to make
sure the others behave. The
ordinary people are outsiders. It
would be difficult for outsiders to monitor these experts. So it is correct to let the experts
supervise each other.
__ __
Mr.
Chen of Taipei: First, I want to
express my highest respect to Mr. Wei.
Needless to say, the Mao Zedong era was lawlessness and non-human. But there was no improvement since Deng
Xiaoping. The issue of human
rights is just a tool for them to use.
Your own is an example. You
were released, because of international pressure, reasons such as China's bid
for the Olympic Games. Later as
well, for other interests to make concessions on human rights issues. I think that since the United States
and China established diplomatic relations, the basic human rights issue has
been in a passive position without a very stable demand.
Wei
Jingsheng: What Mr. Chen said is
all true. Communist China has been
saying all these years it has a goal for political reform, but has never done
so. A very important sign is that
there is not much change in human rights.
There are changes, but only facial without essence; such as the
"counter-revolutionary crimes" being replaced by
"subversion", continues to punish political prisoners. Why is there no fundamental
change? Some people think the
Chinese people are not good. I do
not think so. I think there are
two reasons. One reason is that
while more and more people wake up, with clearer and clearer demand for human
rights, the government cannot accept the demand of the people to allow freedom
of speech, out of the need to maintain one-party dictatorship. Another reason is external: the
international community has seen a lot of changes. In the past, many countries changed due to strong international
pressure, little by little opening up.
Finally unable hold on to dictatorship, those countries moved towards
democracy and equality. But China
had a bad luck. Currently, because
of China's economic development, international society is hot on China's
economy growth, and therefore grants political concessions to the Chinese
authorities. Human rights
gradually evolved into a political deal.
Nowadays, both the West and China are even too lazy to do a deal. Little has improved of human rights in
China, with more and more international concessions. Human rights are put aside. Even the newly appointed U.S. Secretary of State equivocated
with "human rights are not our main topic" during her visit to
China. Reduced pressure from the
international community has made it more difficult for the Chinese people to
realize their hope for democracy.
__
__
Mr.
Wang of Shaanxi: Salute to Mr.
Wei! I am so happy to see
you. You suffered so many years. To establish opposition parties in
China is almost impossible.
Currently the largest opposition party is Kuomintang, but it has
forgotten its roots, and betrayed Sun Yat-sen. Why doesn't the Kuomintang Nationalist Party develop its
members in the joint ventures?
Internet
user Mr. Luo of Fujian: I have two
questions: Can the Hu-Wen regime be counted as a government? Will a Chiang Ching-kuo style character
appear in the Princelings of the Communist Party for free press?
Wei
Jingsheng: The answer for your
first question: they are indeed a government. This is the reality.
In answer to the second question about Princelings: certainly they have
differences and conflicts within themselves. There is conflict between these who made enough money and
those who are making a lot of money.
The reality in China is that if the government does not consider most of
the poor, the political system is about to be overturned. We all see this. Powerful people think they have the army
and armed police, thus they can suppress.
But others see more clearly: read history, you will know that repression
by the military and armed police will not work, people have to live with some
degree of satisfaction. The
fighting in between these two factions has been more intense, but the outcome
is unpredictable.
__ __
Mr.
Wang of Hunan: I am very proud to hear Mr. Wei's voice. I once wrote to friends and my teachers
in Taiwan, hoping the United States to rescue Mr. Wei. To rescue Mr. Wei is to rescue the
Chinese people. You are the great
leader of the Chinese people.
(Wei: Thank you, that's too much.)
We were deeply touched when Mr. Wei proposed the Fifth
Modernization. If the Chinese
Communists does not initiate democracy, does not pursue the rule of law, dose
not engage in multi-party system, it will threaten the entire world, such as
the recent events with Japan.
Another
Mr. Wang of Hunan: China has come to a very important juncture, that is to
achieve political reform. Hu
Jintao has been in power eight years, with his predecessor ruling for 13 years. For total of 21 years, China has no
political reform. I think that Hu
Jintao may be conservative, he can not reach people's expectation. He always stresses stability. Communist Party should consider the
issue of political reform.
Wei
Jingsheng: The above two raised a very important question: If China's do not
make political reforms but only keep economic development, then not only the
Chinese people do not get real interest, but also it will form a threat to the
world. The same is true of Hitler
with political dictatorship and economic development, in fact he composed a
threat to world peace, and finally launched the World War II. Although China has not launch a big war
yet, this trend is not good, its economic development has been aggressive
against the other countries.
Recently the United States have a relatively strong reaction against
China, because China has already posed a threat to the United States. China is an unfair country, so how can
it make fair trade with the United States? Thus it caused bilateral conflicts, such as with Japan. So I think that if China does not carry
out political reform, it will be hazard not only for the Chinese, but also will
be hazard for neighboring countries and the world peace.
__ __
Mr.
Wang of Beijing: I have two questions.
First, I am pessimistic about the peaceful evolution, because the vested
interests of political party hinder democracy. Yet the United States, as you said, even made all the
concessions to China. I would like
to know if democracy can only be achieved through violent revolution? Second, if one day democracy is
realized, which kind of the mode should we adapt? The possibility of creating a democracy in China with its
own characteristics?
Mr.
Shan of Jilin: My wife and I express our highest respect to Mr. Wei. Thirty some years ago you proposed the
Fifth Modernization, but how about today?
Corruption, pollution, even the media in China are afraid to discuss
human rights. How sad!
Mr.
Yin of Shanghai: I think Premier Wen Jiabao is "a movie star". He can really act. He said, "Justice is brilliant
than the sun". But what they
have done never carried the sense of equality. Chinese farmers were born inferior. After many years of working in the
cities, migrant peasants workers return their homes as peasants. After all the hard work, they have to
pay the Communist Party to express their gratitude. So I do not hold hope of his political reform. It just his show but nothing more. I hope Mr. Wei pushing the U.S.
government to be concerned of human rights in China.
Wei
Jingsheng: In the more than a decade I have been out, this is what I have been
doing, to push the United States, and also the world, to put pressure on China.
About
the peaceful evolution and violence issue of Mr. Wang, ancient and modern
history has been the same: of course there will be more damages from the
violence, so we do not want to choose that. However, do we have the power of choice? Authorities have the power of choice,
but common people do not. If we could
have a peaceful evolution, who want a violent revolution? But now the problem is that currently
these in power with vested interests, those who want to continue making money,
they do not want to give up their power, and they do not want peaceful evolution. This is so convenient: with the power
in their hands, they can make big money without big effort. When this situation continues, it will
be the equivalent to force people to rebel. There are many things, such as the demolition of people's
houses with violence, people simply want to safeguard their basic rights
according to law, yet are not allowed.
Does not that mean forcing people to revolt? People have to response with grudges, revenge in
complain. When the regime is
forcing people to revolt, it is a big loss to the country, and will not be good
to these who made a lot of money either.
Therefore, the peaceful evolution is the best model.
People
hope that there could be a Chiang Ching-kuo, or the best a Boris Yeltsin in
China, that would be the easiest, everything changed with the minimum
shock. But will it happen, no one
can predict. Some cases are
accidental.
As
for the model of China's political reform, it would be related to its process
of change. From the case of
Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, we could see the final model has a lot to
do with the ways of reform.
Overall, I am sure that China will has its own model, with Chinese
characteristics. This is different
from the Chinese characteristics labeled by the Chinese Communist Party. We are talking about Chinese
characteristics based on Chinese culture and the reality in China, gradually
establishing an effective system.
In
fact, every country has its own model.
People always say that the Western model, but the one in the United
States is different than France; French model is different than German's. Every democratic system has the
characteristics of their own country, as well as the specific different forms,
but the fundamental principle can not be changed.
__ __
Mr.
Zuo of Shanghai: I have different economic point of view than you. You seems suggest the richer the more
aggressive, but poor countries could also be aggressive. So there is no relationship between
aggressive and economy. The other
is the Chinese culture is obscurantism for a few thousand years and
deep-rooted. Nowadays even give
our Chinese democracy, people do not know how to use it. Like in South America, many people
voted for a rhinoceros in the zoo.
That way may even set the economy backwards. We do not want to lose the momentum of economic growth.
Mr.
Zhao of Sichuan: I really like to listen to Mr. Wei's commentaries. A lot of them are really brilliant,
such as who is the enemy, who is a friend, very wonderful.
Mr.
Xu of Zhejiang: In 1976, Deng Xiaoping started China's "reform and opening
up". It really is a bad
policy to the Chinese people. It
is another Chinese characteristics thing.
People who followed are learning bad.
Mr.
Li of Guangxi: Respected Mr. Wei, you are a veteran pro-democracy movement
activist, and we hope for your more contributions. Back then, you made a lot of sense to criticize Deng
Xiaoping. You looked far enough to
see that corruption problem in China.
But China's future is bright, Chinese society will make progress.
Wei
Jingsheng: Whatever view of these gentlemen, our desires are good, hope that
China will progress, and hope that most of people will be well of, not just a
few people. You talked about moral
hazard in China now, which is exactly because of inequality of the wealth and
the result of social injustice.
Although China is getting wealthy, but in fact only small portion of
people are rich. This part of the
population is large enough to be compared to the population of France, tens of
millions of people. But we must
not forget that China has 1.4 billions of people, over two hundred million
people still in absolute poverty.
If this situation does not improve, China has no future. If it got improved and took the path of
democracy, I think that with the intelligence of the Chinese people, the road
will go very smoothly.
__ __ __
Zhi
Yuan: Hu Jintao recently stressed that: "we must do a solid job to handle
conflicts within the people, to create a good environment for a good
development of economic and social development."
Wei
Jingsheng: It illustrated that the Chinese Communists lost its ways to deal
with its problems. Its persecution
of the people is on its way.
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A575-W343
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A575-W343
Release
Date: October 10, 2010
发布日：2010年10月10日
Topic:
We Must Have Political Reform in China - Wei Jingsheng's Discussion and Answers
to Many TV/Radio/Internet Users in China on Voice of America's "Issues and
Opinions" Call-in Program
标题：必须在中国进行政治改革 -- 魏京生参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目，与众多中国和台湾的观众、听众及因特网用户们一起讨论政改与人权
Original
Language Version: Chinese (English at beginning, Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2010/report2010-10/VOAtvWeiJS101010politicalreformA575-W343.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
必须在中国进行政治改革
-- 魏京生参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目，与众多中国和台湾的观众、听众及因特网用户们一起讨论政改与人权
二零一零年十月四日，魏京生受美国之音“时事大家谈”的邀请，接受了美国之音主持致远的采访，就“中国三十多年来‘经济改革’中的政治变革和人权”的话题做了近一小时长的许多评述。
相关电视节目的连接，请访问：
The
one-hour long video of this program can be viewed at VOA's website:
http://www.voanews.com/chinese/video-audio/63537867.html
或访问：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101004politicalreform1.mp4
和http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101004politicalreform2.mp4
下面是根据采访整理的谈话，以及魏京生对十多位中国大陆及台湾听众电话提问的答复。
致远：改革开放30年以来，中国经济腾飞，财富增长，老百姓的生存权和发展权有什么变化？最近温家宝最近再次提出政治改革，这是他今年以来第六次提到政改。温家宝提政改的背景和意图，引起了各方关注。这次我们邀请了魏京生。他是中国民主运动海外联席会议主席，也是魏京生基金会的总裁。他是文革后最早提出政治改革的人士之一，也是1978-1980西单民主墙的主要参加者，曾经张贴了《第五个现代化》的大字报，提出“没有民主就没有现代化”。他还曾担任《探索》杂志的编辑。
中国政治改革拖延、迟滞，已经很长时间了。经济改革30年，从效果上看中国的经济地位有很大的提高，财富增长。当然也出现一些问题，一些人先富起来了，贫富差距拉大。现在我们主要谈政治变革的状况。魏先生现在是否可以回顾一下当时的历史，文革打倒“四人帮”以后，为什么会出现一股民主之风？
魏京生：其实文革时大家都感觉到，这个国家搞不好，就是因为不民主，老百姓的意见没有人听，上面的领导胡作非为，导致整个国家非常贫困。当时大家的主要感觉就是穷，生活不好，和国际社会尤其是西方国家相比，差距越来越大。这样老百姓就非常不满。这个不满主要体现在经济方面，当然也引导了政治方面。因为不民主，很多人受迫害，因此大家有民主诉求。自从76年开始到78年，这类思潮越来越高涨，直到出现78年的民主墙运动。
致远：当时你提出“第五个现代化”，说“没有民主就没有现代化”。后来邓小平也讲，“没有民主就没有社会主义”，他和你讲的有什么区别呢？
魏京生：我文章里讲过，没有民主就没有社会主义。按照马克思所论述的，社会主义本身应该是一个民主政治。可是共产党的社会主义呢，说的是社会主义，但实质上没有民主，一党专政。这个问题等于把球踢给共产党：你自己说的话，为什么不兑现？
致远：80年代的思潮还比较活跃，但后来也出现了反自由化运动，直到后来发生的八九民运。你觉得中国政改迟迟不能推行，是不是因为人们开始反官倒、反贪污腐败，后来有人提出了反对一党独裁，这就引起了政府不愿意进行政治改革？
魏京生：打倒“四人帮”是中国历史的一个分界点。当年打倒“四人帮”后，大家都希望有个新的政治。对于这个新的政治，大家想法不一样。像我们这种普通老百姓，希望有民主，人们的权利受到保障。可是共产党领导人想的却是如何把自己的政权维持下去。他们的原则是，既要维持一党体制，又要有所改变，因而形成了80年代的改革开放：即改革经济，不改革政治。对于社会上要求的政改，邓小平发起了好几次运动，比如清除精神污染，打击人们的民主诉求。其目的就是维持一党专政，同时经济还保持一个比较好的发展。
致远：那么你是否觉得从他们这个出发点看，中国搞的是“国家资本主义”（或国家控制的市场经济）？与有民主的市场经济相比，中国的这种模式是否更强势，发展得更快呢？
魏京生：当年大家要求政改，其中包括了要实现具有民主的市场经济，学习西方的良好经济制度。这个经济制度必须由民主政治体系加以保证。如果没有这个保证，那么就象胡耀邦所说的“什么事情到了中国就变了调”。的确，很多制度到了中国以后就变了样，这实际上和政治体制有关。我认为经济体制不是一个单独的东西，它和政治体制联系紧密。你看这些年来中国的经济发展，说快确实也挺快，但也不是真正的快。因为不能跟美国英国早期资本主义发展的情形相比。他们当时是自己摸索前进，中国是使用了人家现成的经验。因为是现成的经验，照理说应该发展更快。但是为什么没有更快呢？为什么还遇到很多挫折，包括目前出现的越来越多的问题？这和一党专政的政治体系有很大关系。
致远：1989年以后，中国强调维持稳定，现在中国花在维稳的经费，快赶上军费的开支了。你是否认为中国对“稳定压倒一切”这个问题非常重视，还是说害怕政治改革会引起动乱？
魏京生：中国的许多事情，不能只从字面上理解，而是要看背景。要说稳定，哪个社会不喜欢稳定？不稳定，经济发展不好，老百姓也生活得不舒服。但中国的稳定不是那么回事。现在到处是小偷盗贼，豪宅区也经常被盗，这样的生活当然不稳定。中共所说的稳定有一个前提，就是保证一党专制体制下的稳定。
但是专制体制其实是一种最不稳定的体制。在西方社会，大家生活都不错，只有少部分人不满意，这样的社会自然就比较稳定。而中国，大多数人都生活在贫困之中，不满之中。不要老说人家吃饱了饭，吃饱了饭不一定是满意，穷人一个月几百块钱，看人家一个月好几万块钱，你说他心里是什么感觉？在这种社会普遍不满的心态下，这个社会是不可能稳定的。
致远：最近温家宝提出要稳定地推动中国的政治改革，你对这个提法有什么看法？
魏京生：去年已经有传闻，所谓民间，即中国的亿万富翁，以及一些上层有权势的人，私下里（半公开的）搞一个党，提出要搞民主。这些人看到了，如果不给老百姓一定的自由和人权，这个社会没法稳定，而且会越来越不稳定。其实现在中国的状况就是如此，越来越不稳定了。与其等到老百姓爆发，把政权推翻，还不如自己主动和平演变。所以他们很强烈地提出要和平演变。温家宝这次讲话，我觉得可能和这批有钱人、党内统治者的看法有很大的关系。但是我注意到，这批人始终不占主流。
致远：最近温家宝在考察深圳改革开发30周年时提出，不仅要推动经济改革，而且要推动政治改革，说“没有政治改革的保障，经济改革的成果就会得而复失，现代化建设的目标就不可能实现”。在十一前的招待会上他也再次说：要积极稳妥地推进政治体制改革。
魏京生：温家宝这次说的话是40年以来改革过程中大家都知道的经验教训。想搞政治改革的那个党、那批人就这么想，“我们的改革是为了保持国家的稳定”。“要改革，要民主，必须要保证我们这批人的利益不受损害。”这也是他们愿意提出政改要求的一个前提。
致远：那么你觉得他现在提出了政改，是否有一套具体的方案、纲领、步骤？
魏京生：40年了，我看他们不过就是重复了我当年讲的目标。仅仅是目标而已。我们那个时候还有一些具体的内容，比如言论自由，其实这是最重要的，还有人身的法律保障，也是非常重要的。可是温家宝他们并没有提这些内容。不少朋友问我，是不是现在有希望了？我觉得确实现在党内不少人有这个愿望了。所以有希望，但是希望不大，因为占主流的、掌握现在权力的这批官员很少有这种想法。
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访问结束后，不少听众打电话来提问，魏京生先生一一作答。
浙江徐先生：非常支持魏京生先生，78年的民主运动对推翻中共统治有帮助。中国多年的罪恶表明了中共不是合法政府。
湖南张先生：我觉得中国民主的根本问题并不是共产党执政，当然中共执政是有问题，但最主要的原因是人民素质比较低。我们从六四看出，要求结束一党专政的人还是很少的。大家举着毛泽东、周恩来、华国锋的画像，反对邓小平的经济改革。现在从我所在的地方就可以看到，很多人恨不得回到毛泽东时代，觉得那样比较公平，所谓“不患寡而患不均”。
魏京生：湖南张先生的说法很有代表性，就是觉得中国老百姓素质低。这个素质低要从两方面看。在专制统治下，信息来源不够，老百姓对很多东西都不知道，这是很正常的，不能怪老百姓素质低。我觉得中国老百姓已经非常好了。你看各国搞群众运动的时候，哪个像中国人这么讲礼貌、那么文明、那么目标一致？另外，说老百姓主要是经济诉求，这也是正常的，老百姓只要在自己日子过得不好的时候才感觉不满。
政治是一个很专业的领域。说老百姓不明白政治，其实西方世界老百姓也不懂政治。任何国家都一样，每个人有自己的专业，不可能人人都成为政治专家。民主政治不是把每个人变成政治专家（其实中国人已经比西方人关心政治了，因为中国的政治状况不好，关系到切身利益），民主政治是给老百姓权力，让他们选择代表他们、并且值得信任的人来从事政治。这种人懂得政治。
但怎么限制他们的行为呢？这就需要多党制。如同有人说的，共产党这个党不好，但你要是让任何一个党来执政，其实都差不多。必须把政治家分成不同的党派，让他们互相监督，才能把他们看牢。老百姓都是外行，外行怎么监督内行呢？让这方面的专家来相互监督才是正确的。
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台北陈先生：首先对魏京生先生致以最崇高的敬意。当年毛泽东时代不用说了，无法无天，毫无人情。但以后邓小平也没有改善，对人权这个问题只是工具性的利用。你本身就是一个例子。当年由于国际压力、中国申办奥运会等原因，才释放了你。后来也是如此，为了其它的利益，对人权问题做出让步。我觉得美国自从和中国建交以来，对人权问题基本处于被动地位，并没有很稳定的诉求。
魏京生：陈先生说的都是事实。这些年来中共一直说要政改，但始终没有做。很重要的标志是，在人权方面没有太大的改变。改变是有，但换汤不换药，比如把“反革命罪”取消了，变成了“颠覆罪”，还在继续惩罚政治犯。为什么没有根本变化？有人觉得中国老百姓不好，我觉得不是。我觉得有两个原因，一个原因是，虽然老百姓越来越清醒了，对人权的诉求越来越明确了，但是政府出于维持一党专制的需要，不可能接受老百姓的这些诉求，给大家言论自由。另一个原因是外部：国际上近来有很多变化。过去，许多国家的变化都是在强大的国际压力之下，一点一点地开放，最后坚持不住了，走向民主和平等。但中国的运气不好，目前由于中国的发展，国际对中国的经济越来越热，因此也对中国当局的政治让步越来越多，人权逐渐演化成一种政治交易。甚至目前连交易都懒得做了。中国的人权改进不大，而国际的让步越来越大。人权被放在一边。美国国务卿刚上任，在访问中国期间就等于说了，“人权不是我们的主要议题”。在国际社会压力减少的情形下，中国人民要求民主的希望就变得比较困难了。
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陕西汪先生：向魏先生致敬，看到你很高兴。这么多年你受苦了。在中国要是成立在野党很难的，几乎不可能。目前最大的在野党国民党，已经忘本了，背叛了孙中山。国民党为什么不在合资企业发展国民党党员呢？
福建网民罗先生：我想提两个问题：胡温政权能否算政权？太子党内部能够会出现一个蒋经国式的人物，开放报禁？
魏京生：第一个问题：他们确实是一个政权。这是现实。第二个问题，太子党：他们内部肯定有分歧有矛盾。已经赚足了钱的和正在赚钱的人之间有矛盾。中国的现状是，如果不考虑大多数贫穷的老百姓，这个政治就要翻盘了。大家都看到这一点。有权力的人认为他们有军队和武警，可以镇压。但另一部分人看得更清醒，有史以来都不是靠军队和武警的镇压，总要让老百姓过下去，让他们有一定的满意度才行。这两派意见斗得比较激烈，但结果如何现在难以预测。
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湖南王先生：很自豪听到魏的声音。我曾经写信给台湾朋友和我的老师，希望美国解救魏先生。解救魏先生就是解救中国人民。你是中国人民的伟大领袖。（魏：谢谢，说的太过分了）。魏先生提出第五个现代化我们深受感动。中共如果不搞民主，不搞法制、不搞多党制，将会对整个世界造成威胁，比如最近的日本事件。
湖南另一位王先生：中国已经到了很重要的关口，就是实现政治变革。胡锦涛已执政8年，加上前任执政13年，21年来中国没有政治改革。我觉得胡锦涛可能是保守型的，他达不到大家对他的期待，他老是强调稳定。共产党应该考虑政改问题了。
魏京生：上面两位提出了一个很重要的问题：如果中国经济发展不做政治改革，那么不仅中国人民得不到实际利益，而且给世界带来一种威胁。希特勒的情形也是如此，政治上独裁，经济上发展，但实际上对世界和平构成了威胁，最后发动了二次世界大战。虽然中国现在没有发动大战，但这个趋势不好，它的经济发展可能对其它国家具有侵略性。最近美国对中国有了比较强的反映，那是因为中国已经对美国构成了威胁。中国是个不公平的国家，它怎么能对美国进行公平贸易呢？因而引起了双边矛盾，比如和日本的矛盾。所以我认为，中国如果不进行政治改革，不仅对本土百姓是个危害，而且对周边国家、对世界和平都是重大危害。
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北京王先生：我提两个问题：第一，我对和平演变持悲观态度，因为既得利益的政党阻碍民主，而美国，如你说的，都对中国让步了。我想知道，是否只能通过暴力革命才能实现民主？第二，如果有朝一日能实现民主，究竟采用什么模式？是否可能创造出具有自己特色的中国民主？
吉林单先生：我和妻子一起对魏先生表示最崇高的敬意。三十多年前你提出了第五个现代化，可是今天怎么样？腐败，污染，大陆媒体连人权都不敢讨论，多么悲哀！
上海殷先生：我觉得温家宝是“影帝”，很会演戏。他说“正义比太阳还有光辉”，但他们的所作所为从来没有平等意识。中国农民从生下来就低人一等，农民工进城打工多少年，回去还是农民。打了工还要掏钱谢谢共产党。所以我对他说的政治改革不抱希望，只是表演罢了。希望魏先生能用你们的影响推动美国政府关心中国人权。
魏京生：我出来十几年一直在做的事情，就是推动美国，还有全世界，给中国施加压力。
关于王先生说的和平演变和暴力的问题，古今中外的历史都是这样，暴力当然损害更大，大家不愿意选择。可我们是否有选择的权力？当局有选择的权力，可是老百姓没有。如果能够和平演变，谁也不愿意暴力革命。但是现在的问题是，现任的既得利益者、想继续捞钱的当权者，他们不想放弃手中的权力，不想和平演变。这多方便啊，手中有权，不费力气就可以赚大钱。这样的形势发展下去，等于逼着老百姓不得不造反了。有很多事情，比如暴力拆迁，老百姓不过是想维护法律规定的基本权利，这都不许，那不等于逼着人家造反吗？老百姓不得不有仇报仇，有怨报怨。官逼民反，这对国家损失很大，其实对赚过钱的人也没有好处。所以，和平演变还是最好的模式。
大家希望出个蒋经国，最好再出个叶利钦，那是最省事的办法，一切都改变了，震动最小。但能不能出，谁都无法预测，有些情形有偶然性。
至于中国政治改革会是何种模式，这和改变的过程有关。从苏联东欧的情形就可以看出，最后的模式和通过什么手段改革很有关系。总的说来，我想肯定会是中国自己的模式，有中国特色的。这和共产党说的中国特色不一样。我们说的中国特色是在中国文化的基础上，在中国现实的基础上逐渐建立起一个有效的制度。
其实每个国家都有自己的模式。人们老说西方模式，但美国和法国就不一样，法国和德国也不一样。每个民主制度都有自己国家的特点，以及具体的不同形式，但根本的原则是不能改变的。
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上海左先生：我对你的经济观点不能苟同。好像是越富越有攻击性，但穷国也有攻击性啊。所以攻击性和经济没有关系。另外就是中国的文化是愚民政策，几千年了，根深蒂固，现在就是给我们中国人民主，中国人也不会用。就像南美，很多人把票投给一个动物园的犀牛。那样搞的话，经济上也可能倒退。我们现在不想失去经济增长的势头。
四川赵先生：很喜欢听魏先生的评论，很多都很精彩，谁是敌人，谁是朋友，说得很精彩。
浙江徐先生：1976年邓小平开始中国“改革开放”以后，对中国老百姓其实是不良政策，是另一种中国特色。老百姓都跟着学坏了。
广西李先生：尊敬的魏先生，你是老牌民运人士，希望能做更多贡献。当年你批邓很有道理。你有高见看到了中国腐败问题。但中国的前途是光明的，社会一定会进步。
魏京生：几位先生无论观点如何，大家愿望都是好的，希望中国进步，希望大多数富裕，不是少数人富裕。你们讲到现在中国的道德败坏，这正是因为贫富不均，这是社会不公正的结果。虽然中国现在富裕起来了，但实际上只是一小部分人富裕起来了，这部分人口的数量很大，合起来可能有法国国家的人口，几千万人口。但不要忘了中国有十四亿人，两亿多人民还处在绝对贫困之中，这种状况如果不改善，中国就没有前途。如果改善了，走上民主道路，我想，以中国人的聪明，路会走的很顺的。
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致远：最近胡锦涛最近强调说：“扎实做好处理人民内部矛盾的工作，为经济社会发展创造良好环境”。
魏：这说明中共没招了，要整人了。
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