Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A577-W345
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A577-W345
Release
Date: October 17, 2010
发布日：2010年10月17日
Topic:
Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize and its Influence in China -- Wei Jingsheng's
Discussion with Voice of America's Host Jiang Tian, and Co-guest Gong Xiaoxia
标题： 刘晓波获诺贝尔和平奖及对中国的影响 -- 魏京生、龚晓夏参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目
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Liu
Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize and its Influence in China
--
Wei Jingsheng's Discussion with Voice of America's Host Jiang Tian, and
Co-guest Gong Xiaoxia
On
October 11, 2010, Wei Jingsheng was invited to appear on Voice of America's
"Issues and Opinions" TV/Radio/Internet Program hosted by Jiang Tian.
During the one-hour long call-in program, Wei Jingsheng discussed in detail Liu
Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize and its influence in China, along with another
guest, Ms. Gong Xiaoxia.
The
one-hour long video of this program can be viewed at VOA's website:
http://www.voanews.com/chinese/video-audio/63537867.html
or
by visiting:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101011LiuXB1.mp4
and
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101011LiuXB2.mp4
The
following was the main content of the program.
Jiang
Tian: Will Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize serve for what the Nobel Peace
Committee hoped for, to promote democracy and human rights progress in the
economically rising China? What kind of person is Liu Xiaobo? Today, we invite
the well-known pro-democracy leader Wei Jingsheng and independent commentator
Miss Gong Xiaoxia to explore these issues with us.
Jiang
Tian: Wei Jingsheng, you are a pioneer of the democratic movement. You were in
jail for many years and suffered a lot, what is your evaluation of Liu's win?
Wei
Jingsheng: The Chinese people look
forward to the Nobel Peace Prize, so Liu's prize should encourage the Chinese
people for the good. You can see
people are very excited and very happy, while the Chinese government is
embarrassed.
Jiang
Tian: Ms. Gong Xiaoxia, how do you see it?
Gong
Xiaoxia: I certainly think this is a very good thing. For nearly a decade, the world attention on China has mainly
focused on its economic development.
In recent years, human rights have become less and less of an issue.
Human rights are very important.
The Chinese government always said that the most important thing is
economic development and that we have enough to eat, that human rights are less
of an issue. But the world is
expressing a different view with this award: that we are all concerned, or
paying more attention to human rights problems. So I say that this award is significant.
Jiang
Tian: Mr. Wei, I saw an article reported by the Agence France-Presse about your
comment when talking about Liu Xiaobo's winning. You said there were more qualified people than him. What did you specifically say?
Wei
Jingsheng: Actually, of course, a lot of people in China could be winners, but
the Nobel Peace Prize cannot be given to all of them. The Nobel Committee said before their announcement of the
award that they hoped the prize will create a new situation, that the future of
China has a new guide, with new things.
To present the prize to Liu Xiaobo could contain these ideas. The Nobel Peace Committee, including
many people in the international community, has received all sorts of criticism
for lack of concern of Chinese democracy over all these years. They hope to
find a moderate who could be accepted by the Chinese government to guide China's
democracy in a more moderate direction. They have such intentions.
Jiang
Tian: You mean that when they chose the object of their prize, they chose a
relatively moderate person?
Wei
Jingsheng: Yes, so to the Chinese government it is more acceptable. Otherwise,
the Chinese government's negative repercussion would be relatively large. We
have heard a lot of this kind of arguments in the past years.
Jiang
Tian: What do you think the Chinese government's response is this time? Is it relatively strong, or relatively
low key?
Wei
Jingsheng: I think it is not very strong, unusually not very strong. For example, even a few days ago, the
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said: We do not give them (the
Nobel Peace Prize Committee) much pressure, we just say that this person is a
criminal. In comparison to the past, this statement is relatively mild.
Jiang
Tian: Dissidents living abroad have issued statements, including Wang Dan, Yang
Jianli, and Hu Ping. Wang Dan and
Yang Jianli gave statements of support after the award. I did not see Hu Ping's
afterwards. But I saw his article a couple of days before the award in
"China Spring" where he said he hoped the award would be given to
Liu.
Xiaoxia,
I have a question: the Nobel Peace
Prize Committee talked about the Nobel Peace Prize being given to Liu Xiaobo
for his promoting a non-violent struggle.
Why do they emphasize "non-violent"? I think Wei Jingsheng and other democratic people have not
advocated violence; how do you see it?
Gong
Xiaoxia: I think there are two aspects. One is that the Peace Prize surely has
a prerequisite of non-violence, although the award does not always follow this
principle. In another aspect, I do not agree with what Wei said about Liu
Xiaobo being relatively moderate.
The recent democratic changes in China are composed of wide a range of
activities. Previously it was always focused on the issue of the one-party
dictatorship. Now the democracy activities include rights-defending, labor,
environmental protection, freedom of the press, and other aspects. We can see that China has a lot of
people in different areas to promote human rights improvements. Liu Xiaobo is in one or several
areas. When a person advocates one
area, he'll become very professional. This means that he is quite subject to
local laws and rules. Challenges
to the Chinese government are often not because their laws are no good, but
because they do not obey these laws. So in the eyes of many, a person acting
under the legal framework seems more moderate. But in my opinion, they are not
moderate. They work for a very revolutionary change, with moderate and
non-violent means.
Jiang
Tian: Mr. Wei, what do you think of Xiaoxia's statement?
Wei
Jingsheng: That is her view. She
feels he is not moderate, but most people recognize that Liu Xiaobo etc. are
moderate. Even Liu himself felt he
was moderate. This can be
tolerated. Because you are active
in China, you must make certain compromises with the regime. Complete non-compromise would send you
to prison quickly. Of course there
are people like Yang Tianshui who do not want to compromise at all, thus are
considered to be more radical.
Liu
has done something not good. Although the democratic movement has many
different colors, and some are even more moderate, such as human rights lawyers
- they have to make a lot of compromise with the courts, police, and local
governments. It is certain. We all understand. But you cannot go attack people because
they are more radical. Why has Liu's Nobel Peace Prize received very strong
negative repercussions from many people? This compromise is the main
reason. I have been speaking
relatively moderately. What some others said are really unpleasant to
hear. But those harsh words are
not all right. You can criticize
Liu's evaluation of the radical activists, such as Gao Zhisheng, but you should
not attack Liu's personality.
Attack on a person's personality is a little too much.
Jiang
Tian: Just how many people have strong negative repercussions? Who are they?
Wei
Jingsheng: a lot. I am paying attention these days to see the rebound on the
Internet, including views from inside China.
Jiang
Tian: You said Liu Xiaobo attacked others, such as Gao Zhisheng. What did he say?
Wei
Jingsheng: We all know his attitude against Gao. When people were calling for Gao's release, Liu Xiaobo was
not for it. His very good friends did some very bad things on their own
website, mocking Gao, etc. Of
course he himself did not mock Gao.
But this caused a lot of resentment. We have been accepting and
tolerating all sorts of pro-democracy movement, but what they did makes people
disgusted.
Jiang
Tian: Xiaoxia, have you heard of Liu's such conduct?
Gong
Xiaoxia: Mr. Wei knows that I have not been very involved in these internal
things these years. But we are all friends. I did hear a few. But the important
point is that this award is not to Liu Xiaobo, an individual, nor to recognize
his personal moral conduct. I have
known Mr. Wei for so many years as a friend, we all know that no one is
perfect, everyone has some personal problems. Most fundamentally, this award is
given to someone serving a sentence in prison in China. This has a very symbolic meaning. we
should pay attention to this, instead of how he did not get along with whoever,
or the conflict, or what did he do, etc.
I think that is not that important. In fact, history is such a
thing. After some time, we all
forget. We might have a fight
against each other, but we have driven the world to go so far. Look at China, it has gone so far in
the past a few decades. Why? This
has a lot to do with people like Wei Jingsheng's push forward. We may have had different opinions back
then. But now, everyone does not
think it was a problem when Wei Jingsheng called for "the Fifth
Modernization". Coming this
far, it is inseparable from our pushing forward. We should look at this.
Jiang
Tian: Liu Xiaobo was arrested and sentenced mainly due to the drafting of the
"Charter 08", which was released on December 8, 2008. Which kind of
document is this "Charter 08"?
How much involvement did Liu Xiaobo have in drafting this "Charter
08"? After Liu was arrested,
we interviewed the famous Sino-expert of Princeton University, Professor Perry
Link. Professor Link had given a
lot of opinions during the drafting of the "Charter 08". Lin Sen of the Voice of America
interview him. We are now re-broadcasting this interview, to see what Perry
Link had said.
Gong
Xiaoxia: Perry Link knows the
inside story.
[Play
recording:
Perry
Link: It is an abstract document.
It did not take any action, nor does it explain how to achieve the ideal
China from the current China. It only writes out an abstract ideal. But I would
not say that it is only a symbolic writing. These relatively abstract wordings
of idealism have their real terms. About this Charter 08, our understanding is
that it is not asking the above, that the policy makers of the Communist Party
make some changes, but it is a conversation between the citizens. As for when this ideal can be achieved
and how to achieve it, this Charter 08 did not write. It simply means that we
seek common ground in big principles in an effort to reach a mutual
understanding despite differences in between citizens.]
Jiang
Tian: In addition to "Charter 08", the reporter also asked why did
the Chinese government arrest Liu Xiaobo, because "Charter 08" itself
does not mention overthrowing the Communist Party. Professor Link answered this way:
[Play
recording:
Perry
Link: The question is why choose Liu as an example? As the target of the
arrest? You're right, what Liu said many before were approved by the Chinese
authorities. Here, the authority
also has its strategy: it put a dissident out, saying: look we allow him to criticize
us, which shows our tolerance.
This may be its idea. Now
it arrests him as an example. I see it in the old way - warning the monkeys by
killing the chickens. Probably
because Liu is relatively better known, so it chose to arrest him, to make him
an example to frighten others. But
on the other hand, you better ask the Communist Party this question, I can only
speculate.]
Jiang
Tian: today's discussion topic is: the significance of the Liu Xiaobo
award. Our honored guests
participating in the studio are Mr. Wei Jingsheng, the democracy leader, and
Ms. Gong Xiaoxia, an independent commentator.
__ __ __
Lin
of Anhui Province: Greetings to Teacher Wei and Teacher Gong. I think that for
decades now, Liu Xiaobo would not give up his Chinese citizenship. He as a Chinese national continues the
democracy movement in the Mainland.
Mr. Liu is a solid patriots. Chinese democracy relies on people like Mr.
Liu to be truly realized. We must
understand the nature and reality of China. Wang Bingzhang and Gao Zhisheng
also had heroic deeds. But to face
the reality of China, Liu Xiaobo's moderate way, dropping water could etch
stones, is perhaps more threatening to the Chinese Communists. I call upon
fellow Chinese to unite, to take Mr. Liu's Nobel Peace Prize as another climax
of our Chinese democracy movement.
Cao
of Fujian Province: I heard Liu Xiaobo won the Nobel Peace Prize on October 8.
I am very excited and very happy.
I feel that Liu's sentence is what only an authoritarian government would
do. I have read some
articles. Mr. Liu often revealed
what the authoritarian government does, and criticized the government, and
hoped the government would carry out political reforms. I agree with his criticisms. From a scientific point of view, communism
is pseudo-science, it is a destruction of human nature and is perverse. In
economics, it is a violation of the people's normal business activities.
Jiang
Tian: We have talked about how Liu Xiaobo has a more moderate political stand.
What are your political views, Mr. Wei, and what is the difference?
Wei
Jingsheng: Since 1979, my view has always been that we must have a
non-compromised struggle with the Communist Party system, to create pressure,
to force it to make some changes. Liu's main stand is not "Charter
08." What he has been promoting is to have a "positive
interaction" with the government, to make compromise, and "the
Communist Party is not our enemy." We can understand what he said, because
he has had to live since he is in China. However, many people in China would
not say so. Many people in China know that the Communist Party is the root
cause of their suffering. When Liu talks about compromise and cooperation with
the Communist Party, many people do not agree with him. In this regard, he and
we have a lot of difference. This is the main reason that people regard us as
radicals, while think him as a moderate.
Jiang
Tian: You said to apply pressure to the Chinese Communist Party. But the
Communist Party controls the army, and they always quote the idea of Mao
Zedong, that political power comes from the barrel of a gun, and the gun also
protects the regime. They control the tools like the army and the police. Do
you think pressure will be effective?
Wei
Jingsheng: Of course there are considerations of many interests, including
concern for their own future.
Nowadays, the ordinary Chinese have more and more intense feelings
against the regime. Many
communists think that people will sooner or later be forced to rebel if there
is no political reform. So, many people within the Party urge for reform. This situation is the case under
pressure, including the international pressure that causes a lot of worries to
the Communist Party. The Chinese
Communists had to make some changes. For example, putting me in exile to the
United States. They were very
unwilling to do so, yet they had to. The Chinese people's pressure and
international pressure all have very practical functions and can make changes. That people within the Communist Party
demand change is also out of such pressure, instead of their own willingness.
If they are able to enjoy all the rights and benefits as they wish, why would
they want change?
Jiang
Tian: Xiaoxia, do you think Liu's ideas would work? Make sense?
Gong
Xiaoxia: This is not an issue of proposition. We may have many different ideas.
The most daring thing about Liu's "Charter 08" is to unite people as
an organization. China's current
problem is not lack of ideas.
Ideas abound. Instead,
there is a lack of a system for China to have a real opposition party, so that
different views have a place for expression. "Charter 08" made the
first step towards the opposition.
Why is it that some people speaking very intensely inside the Communist
Party are all right, yet they pick Liu to arrest? Liu made the organization for
action. Even if you just organize
a conference chatting nonsense it is not allowed. This is an organized action.
So dissent is one thing, whether organized in the form is another thing, this
is the main reason for Liu to be arrested.
Jiang
Tian: You mean organized action is what the Communist Party is most afraid of?
Wei
Jingsheng: Yes. Falun Gong practitioners only practice Falun Gong. They did not talk about politics at
all, yet were arrested. So,
forming an organization is indeed an important reason that Liu Xiaobo got
arrested. Liu's friends were
surprised, asking if Liu Xiaobo is so moderate and what he wrote even got
approval from the Communist authorities, how he could be arrested? It seems he was very wrongfully
treated. But in fact, as Xiaoxia
made the point, regardless how moderate you are, when you form an organization
with some people around and appear as if you want to do something, the
Communist Party will not allow it.
Jiang
Tian: You just mentioned to apply
pressure to the Chinese Communist Party. Then is signing the "Charter
08" itself a form of pressure?
Wei
Jingsheng: According to the Western point of view, this is a normal expression
of the people. But by the dictionary
of the Communist Party, this is counter-revolutionary organization. What Xiaoxia said is the key: Signing
"Charter 08", engaging in group practice, forming websites, makes the
Communist Party think that he had crossed the line.
Gong
Xiaoxia: Now there is a
problem. Now is the era of the
information revolution. Regardless how moderate a charter is, using it as a
foundation could link many people through the Internet. This really is the
pressure and threat to the Communist Party.
Wei
Jingsheng: So Liu Xiaobo's arrest itself also illustrates that even as he
wanted to "make positive interaction" with the Communist Party, this
road leads nowhere. When he was
arrested, people were saying: You see, he said to "make positive
interaction" with the Communist Party, carried it out in action even to
the degree of severe criticism even gibing the other dissidents; you can say
that he made a lot of compromises with the Communist Party, but it still did
not work. If you want to form an organization, then the Communist Party is very
intelligent, it will not let you form it.
Jiang
Tian: not only organizing, even gathering with a few people is not allowed.
Wei
Jingsheng: Not even allowed if you practice Qi Gong. Finally, Falun Gong was
driven to revolt, Quitting the Chinese Communist Party, and the Nine
Commentaries on the Communist Party, etc. Falun Gong itself said this is not
political, but it was forced to be anti-communist. As a matter of fact, this is the case for the majority of
Chinese. They are forced to the corner by the Communist Party.
__ __ __
Jiang
Tian: I received several e-mails, some of them sent their greetings to you.
"We support the democracy advocator Liu Xiaobo winning the Nobel. We
appeal to overseas pro-democracy leaders to remain united."
Wei
Jingsheng: In fact, many points of view between Xiaoxia and me are different,
but we are still friends.
Gong
Xiaoxia: He loves the food I cooked.
That is the reason.
Wei
Jingsheng: Unity is unity, but the important points cannot be
unprincipled. In fighting against
the Communist Party, the pressure is very important. We hope to have some people come forward in direct contact
with the Communist Party using negotiation and compromise. But, they should not cross the line. Otherwise, even after all the
compromises and they would be still arrested like Liu Xiaobo. Then what is the
purpose? Some people's struggle,
including Yang Jia who killed police, are events with a great impact on the
Communist Party. They are afraid that
people will rebel if the situation continues. After rebellion, the case will not be the same. The Communists may have a lot of money
now, but what would happen after people revolt? So, there is a lot of pressure within the Communist Party.
I
never opposed the spontaneous resistance of the people, although I have always
had peaceful struggle myself. I
hope China will have a peaceful evolution. We are now working for this. We apply pressure to the Communists for this purpose. But, when people rise up against
suppression, you must stand with the people, not condemn the people. Liu Xiaobo's group did not do well on
this and thus received a lot of opposition from many people.
Jiang
Tian: Did they condemn the people for that?
Wei
Jingsheng: They called Yang Jia a fascist (Yu Jie said it, but people consider
them in the same group.) What Liu said was also unpleasant to hear; he called
it "primitive justice" that is not justice. In short, he criticized
it which is in conflict with people's emotions.
Gong
Xiaoxia: Not necessarily. I think Yu Jie and Liu Xiaobo are relatively
independent persons, not of a political party. One does not represent the other. Liu Xiaobo and I are about the same age, the same
generation. I can feel Liu
Xiaobo's fear of that kind of mass movement without order, which I
understand. They only speak for
themselves and do not represent the others. Therefore, regarding unity within the democratic movement, I
think that the democracy movement itself is democratic. It is not unified, does not need to
have all agree. Disagreement is a
very normal thing.
__ __ __
Zhang
of Hunan Province: Greetings to
Mr. Wei and Ms. Gong. I am very
happy to learn that Liu got the award, it is a great encouragement to the
Chinese democracy movement. The
Nobel Peace Prize is a world-class award, instead of an ordinary award. So people will all ask about why this
person won the Nobel Prize; they will pay attention to "Charter 08",
and be concerned about China and the redress of the 1989 Tiananmen democracy
movement. I hope the Chinese
government can treat this reasonably and release Liu Xiaobo as soon as
possible.
Wang
of Hunan Province: A democratic
Charter is a very urgent matter for China. This pursuit has more than one hundreds
of history, starting from Sun Yat-sen.
Today, I do not know why the Chinese authorities imprisoned Liu Xiaobo.
Liu's charter has a framework that includes the Communist Party. It does not
propose to overthrow the Communist Party, and at least literally withstands
scrutiny. If they were even
against this, then the Communists would not win back then. If you do not even
have democracy, who would fellow you? After sixty years of revolution, the
Communist Party had big failings, such as the Cultural Revolution. Why was that? Exactly because it lacked
democracy as the fundamental thing. Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto was much
more fierce than Liu Xiaobo's, but in Europe more than one hundred years ago,
he was free without being imprisoned.
So I think the award to Liu Xiaobo is a good timing with the right
knowledge of the committee. We
recognize China's progress, but the Chinese government is wrong to exchange its
heart with the North Korea's dictator.
Lu
of Hubei Province: I have my
opinion to Mr. Wei. Mr. Wei said
that Liu had these problems, but I see from the comments of Liu Xiaobo that he
is a man of not simple personality.
I think it is appropriate for him to get this award. The Chinese people
need a mainstream, a representative of mainstream of heavyweights to influence
China. I hope that Mr. Wei will
put aside the divergence and unite together, which will tell the Chinese how to
unite, not to be loose sand. Today I heard the Chinese media say that the West
is now using the Nobel Prize as a tool. I do not know if you heard it or not.
Jiang
Tian: I would like to ask a question:
Liu Xiaobo said to have positive interaction with the Chinese
government. Were those Liu's exact
words?
Wei: Basically the original words。 Further, after he went to prison, he
even said "no enemies", "heart-warming prison management,"
which is very different from what others felt. Perhaps he received better treatment. But he should know that other
pro-democracy activists and others people including rights defenders and
ordinary people suffered miserably in the prisons. Look at those people
petitioning, they were very badly treated by the police. Liu paid attention to these every day
and should know. So he should not praise the “heart-warming prison management”. This statement made us pretty
disgusted.
Mr.
Lu of Hubei said that we should unite.
In fact, it is hard to say if we are able to unite together. If we seek the common ground while keep
our differences, then it is OK. Over the years, I have had different views from
Liu Xiaobo and his group. He knows
that I have often criticized him, but he also knows very well of our
unity. When he had troubles, we
appealed for him. After Liu was
arrested and sentenced, there was not much attention in the U.S. press. I wrote articles published in the New
York Times, the International Herald Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, Christian
Science Monitor, Le Monde, Der Welt, etc.
The so-called unity is that we help each other, but it does not mean
that we should intervene impartially in disagreement. I think Liu's view is wrong, his own arrest itself proves
his point is wrong. The Communist
Party which wants to block our road to democracy will not easily make
compromises. We must seek unity in
the struggle, instead of unity under the premise of a compromise.
Jiang
Tian: you advocate pressure on the Communist Party to push them for political
reform. So your ultimate goal is to abandon the Communist Party, to overthrow
the Communist Party, to establish a system of multi-party competition, or to
push for democracy within the communist system?
Wei
Jingsheng: In this regard, Liu Xiaobo and I have the same view -- to be outside
of the Communist system. In 1989, there was the struggle within the Communist
system, it finally had the great setback after so many years of effort because
of Zhao Ziyang. In China and abroad, this viewpoint is consistent: to have an
opposition party outside the Communist system. This is very important. Xiaoxia
may understand this even deeper, she is now campaigning in the United States.
Gong
Xiaoxia: I agree with Old Wei's view. To say realizing democracy within the
Communist system, this is in itself very absurd. A system itself regulates not
allowed to be outside of the system. Not allowed to be outside of the system,
how can you have democracy? So, to have change, we must change the system. If
we have to change you the system, how could we change within the system? This
is impossible. In this regard, Democrats have a consensus. If someone within
the system want to change, which would be good. But not because that there is
this intention within the system, then we do not want to change from outside
the system. These people who emphasize the change within the system do not
recognize the change from outside.
But these people who recognize changes from outside, would recognize
changes within. This is a big difference.
Wei
Jingsheng: Speaking of compromise, some would say, Old Wei you are wrong for
struggling without compromises. Actually it is no. If the pressure reached to a
certain degree, like what was with the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe,
there could be someone within the Communist Party jump out asking for peaceful
evolution, to have evolution regardless whatever means. By then, we will stand
together with the democrats within the Communist Party, and would not say no
compromise. However, while the Communist Party is not changing, keeping
continuously give concessions to the Communists is equal to ease the burden and
reduce the pressure for the Communist Party. Therefore, we are very worried
about this.
Jiang
Tian: So your big goal is the same.
Wei
Jingsheng: Of course.
__ __ __
Feng
of Beijing: I am very glad to see Mr. Wei. I have two separate questions for
you two. Mr. Wei is a pioneer of the Chinese democracy movement in China and
was in jail for many years. During the time you were in jail and later during a
very long time, you did not receive the Nobel Prize. But today, Liu Xiaobo got
it. I want to know how you look at Liu's award and whether it has something to
do with the current international and domestic situation?
Ms.
Gong Xiaoxia, I want to ask a question: You mentioned the problems within and
outside of the system. if the Communist Party appeared to be several factions,
and evenly matched, and can hold democratic elections within the party, does
this equivalent to the West such as the United States' Democratic and
Republican camps?
Wei
Jingsheng: I'm interested to answer Xiaoxia's question. American Party can
split. If you can split, of course, is a good thing. We do not have to make
that opposition party. When the
Communist Party split and produce an opposition party, it would be very good.
Gong
Xiaoxia: You can not answer that for me. I have participated some American
politics. The difference between the two parties in the US, the relationship
between them, are not like that tense as China within two different factions
(of the Communist Party), that when they see each other, they would pull out
their knives to stab. That is because we agree with the basic principles of
democracy and respect for others. If the Communist Party could be split into
several factions, and if they can be totally different in principle, in
response to social development, and in organizational forms, then it is not a
Communist Party, but several different parties. So I think, whether it is one
party, two parties (such as Japan is a party, several factions), the most basic
question is how you look at the future of the society. Do you agree that some
very basic values of society, including human rights, government authority
comes from the people, these sorts of basic principles.
Wei
Jingsheng: I answer that question as why I did not win Nobel. From 1992, I got
nominated. But the Communist Party's pressure has been great, at that time the
international trend is to support the people against the Chinese Communist
Party. But now with more and more closer economic and trade relations,
Westerners feel more and more dependent on China. Now the trend of the world is
more agreeable to Liu Xiaobo's policy of peaceful compromises. They think that
they can reach a more democratic system through negotiation, like South Africa.
Gong
Xiaoxia: I am here to add answer: back then when Wei Jingsheng was nominated
for Nobel, it illustrated Wei as a symbol for democracy. This is very
important. At that time, many countries are not democratic, and many other
issues occupy a significant position. Recently years, on one side, there is
this economic reform in China, while on the other side, China emphasizes its
national strength, put human rights as secondary. By give Nobel Prize to Liu
Xiaobo, who is serving a sentence, the world is telling the importance of human
rights in China. In fact, this award also includes Wei Jingsheng. Because Wei
is a pioneer. (Wei Jingsheng: No, no, too much.) So this award is for everyone,
and Liu Xiaobo is just a symbol.
Wei
Jingsheng: at least part of the Westerners' view has changed, they think that
the Communist Party does not have to be overthrown, instead they wish to
altered the Communist regime peacefully. Make it short, they hope that China is
relatively stable, in order to ensure their business interests. This is the
mainstream of Western thought. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton
expressed that: human rights are not our main issue. This releases a very clear
signal -- from the perspective of business interests, the concept of human
rights to the Chinese has changed.
Jiang
Tian: Xiaoxia, do you agree with Wei's statement?
Gong
Xiaoxia: this topic are a bit long. I should say that I do not agree with the
statement. There are always the interests of business, but for human rights,
the people, how to manage the country, these are the very basic values of the
West. Maybe some politicians who will say: we can reach some agreement, to
bring benefits for some interest groups. But I think the very basic values of
the West are forever, and will not change.
Wei
Jingsheng: This is the real important reason for these Western officials to
talk about human right, although they want to make compromises with the Chinese
government. What Xiaoxia said is: the politicians could not shake the basic
concepts of people in the Western society. However, political manipulation is
there, such as people criticize that the big businesses companies manipulating
American politics more than people. Although this saying maybe a little too
much, but basically true. The subtle change of the US attitude toward human
rights in China, America's increased compromise to the Chinese government, all
illustrate the more and more influence from the business interests.
Gong
Xiaoxia: We could discuss this later. I am involved in American politics. I
really do not think that Western politics is dominated by large enterprises.
Jiang
Tian: Mr. Wei was talking about the West hopes for democratic reforms under the
Communist rule, is this the goal for the West?
Gong
Xiaoxia: I do not think that is the goal, but a reality they have to hold their
noses to accept.
Jiang
Tian: that is to accept the reality of Communist rule, and to promote reform
within this frame.
Wei
Jingsheng: politicians have a very difficult choice: whenever talk about China,
people are most concerned about China's human rights; but these who fund these
politicians are most concerned about not to affect their business. Thus this is
a huge contradiction.
(Transcribed
and translated by the Wei Jingsheng Foundation.)
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A577-W345
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A577-W345
Release
Date: October 17, 2010
发布日：2010年10月17日
Topic:
Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize and its Influence in China -- Wei Jingsheng's
Discussion with Voice of America's Host Jiang Tian, and Co-guest Gong Xiaoxia
标题： 刘晓波获诺贝尔和平奖及对中国的影响 -- 魏京生、龚晓夏参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目
Original
Language Version: Chinese (English at beginning, Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2010/report2010-10/VOAtvWeiJS101017LiuXBprizeA577-W345.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
刘晓波获诺贝尔和平奖及对中国的影响
-- 魏京生、龚晓夏参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目
二零一零年十月十一日，魏京生和龚晓夏女士参加了由美国之音江天主持的《时事大家谈》节目。主谈刘晓波获诺贝尔和平奖及对中国的影响。
相关电视节目的连接，请访问：
The
one-hour long video of this program can be viewed at VOA's website:
http://www.voanews.com/chinese/video-audio/63537867.html
或访问：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101011LiuXB1.mp4
和http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/VOAinterviewWeiJS101011LiuXB2.mp4
以下为节目的主要内容。
江天：刘晓波获得诺贝尔和平奖，是否会像诺奖评委所希望的那样，在经济崛起的中国推动民主人权的进步？刘晓波是怎样一个人呢？今天我们邀请著名民运领袖魏京生先生和独立评论人士龚晓夏女士来和我们探讨这些问题。
江天：魏京生先生，您是民主运动的先驱，坐了很多年牢，受了很多苦，您对刘晓波获奖有什么评价？
魏京生：中国人对诺贝尔和平奖非常期望，所以刘晓波获奖对鼓励中国老百姓有好处。你可以看到大家很激动，非常高兴。而中国政府很尴尬。
江天：龚晓夏女士您是怎么看呢？
龚晓夏：我当然觉得这是非常好的事情。快十年了，世界关注中国，主要是关注它的经济发展，人权问题这几年说得越来越少了。人权问题很重要。中国政府总是说，现在经济发展好了，大家吃饱饭最重要，人权是其次的事情。但是世界用这个奖来表示，大家重新关注，或者说更加关注人权问题了。所以我说这个奖意义非常大。
江天：魏先生，我看到法新社有一篇报道，您在接受他们采访的时候谈论刘晓波获奖时，您说比他更有资格获奖的人大有人在，您当时具体是怎么说的？
魏京生：实际上，在中国可以获奖的人当然很多，而和平奖不可能给所有人。诺贝尔审委会在发奖前事先也说过，希望这次发奖能创造出一个新局面，对中国的前途有个新的引导，带出新的东西来，给刘晓波颁奖可能就包含着他们这些想法。也就是说，评委会，包括国际社会上很多人，由于多年来不太关心中国的民主，然后又受到了各种批评，他们希望找到一个能够被中国政府接受的温和派，引导中国民主向比较温和的方向发展。他们有这种意图。
江天：您的意思是他们在选择获奖对象时，选择了比较温和的人？
魏京生：对，这样中国政府比较容易接受。否则中国政府的反弹会比较大。这个情形过去很多年里我们听说了很多。
江天：那您认为这次中国政府的反应是比较强烈呢，还是比较低调？
魏京生：我认为不是很强烈，异乎寻常的不强烈。比如说，在获奖前几天，中国外交部发言人姜瑜还说：“我们没有给他（诺奖评委）施加压力啊，我们不过是说这个人是个罪犯。”这种说法和过去很多说法相比相当温和。
江天：刘晓波获奖，旅居海外的异议人士都发表了声明，其中有王丹，杨建利，还有胡平。王丹和杨建立是在获奖之后发表的声明。我没有看到胡平在获奖后的表态，但我看到在发奖前一两天，他在《中国之春》上发表了一篇文章，说希望刘晓波获奖。
晓夏，我有个问题，诺奖审委会在给刘晓波颁奖时，提到了诺奖提倡的是非暴力奋斗，为什么他们强调“非暴力”？我觉得老魏，还有其他的民主人士，谁也没有鼓吹暴力，你怎么看？
龚晓夏：我想这里面有两个方面。一方面说，和平奖嘛，非暴力肯定是一个前提，虽然诺贝尔和平奖并不是总遵守这个原则。另一个方面，我不同意老魏说，刘晓波是比较温和的，最近中国的变化使得民主活动的范围广泛了许多。以前总是集中在一党专制问题上。现在民主活动有维权、劳工、环保、新闻自由等多方面。我们可以看到，中国有非常多的人在不同领域里推动人权的改进。刘晓波是在一个或几个领域里。当一个人在一个领域里推进的时候，就会变得十分职业化。这就是说他们相当遵守当地的法律和规矩。中国政府所受到的挑战，往往不是他们自己的法律不好，而是他们自己不守法。所以在很多人看来，在法律框架下行事的人看起来比较温和。但在我看来，他们不温和。他们在做一个非常革命性的变化，只是手段是非常温和的，非暴力的。
江天：魏先生您对晓夏这个说法有什么看法？
魏京生：那是她的看法。她觉得不温和，但是一般人都公认刘晓波他们是比较温和，连刘晓波自己也觉他比较温和。这一点是可以容忍的。因为你在国内活动，必须对当局有一定的妥协。完全不妥协的很快就进监狱了。当然也有像杨天水这样完全不妥协，被认为比较激进的。
刘晓波有个不好的地方，虽然民主运动有不同的色彩，甚至有些人更加温和，比如人权律师，他们和法院、警察、当地政府都要有很多妥协。这是肯定的，大家都理解。但是你不能因为人家比你激进，就去攻击他。为什么刘晓波获奖以后不少人反弹很大，主要就是这个原因。我说话算是比较温和的了。许多人说话很难听。但是那些很难听的话也不对，你可以批评刘晓波对激进人士的评价，比如对高智晟的评价等，但你不应该攻击刘晓波的人格。攻击人家的人格就有些太过分了。
江天：刚才您谈到许多人反弹很大，是哪些人呢?
魏京生：很多。这两天我比较注意看网上的反映，包括国内的评论。
江天：您说到刘晓波攻击别人，比如攻击高智晟，他说了些什么呢？
魏京生：这个态度大家都知道，我只说我知道的事情。在大家要呼吁释放高律师的时候，刘晓波他们反对。他很好的朋友们在自己的网站上做了一些很不好的事情，拿高律师取笑等等，当然不是他本人这么做。这样做引起大家很多反感。本来大家对不同色彩的民运都接受，都容忍，但他们这么做就让大家十分反感。
江天：晓夏，您听说过刘晓波的这类作为吗？
龚晓夏：老魏知道，这些年我已经不太介入这些内部的事情。但是大家都是朋友吗，听还是听说了一些。但是很重要的一点是，这个奖不是给刘晓波个人的，也不是拿这个奖来表彰他个人的道德操守。我和老魏在一起，这么多年的朋友，我们都知道人无完人，每个人都有一些个人的小问题，大问题。最根本的是，这个奖给了一个正在中国服刑的人，具有非常的象征意义。这一点我们应该重视，而不是在这个时候说这个人过去和谁不好了，和谁有冲突了，做了什么等等。我觉得那是其次的。其实历史就是这么回事。过了一些时候，我们都忘了，可能我们互相打了一架，但是我们推动了世界走了这么远。看看中国，这几十年走了这么远，为什么？这和老魏他们的推动很有关系。当初我们可能有不同的意见，可是现在，大家对当年老魏说的“第五个现代化”都不觉得是个问题了。走到这一步，和大家的推动分不开。我们应该看这个。
江天：刘晓波被捕判刑的主要原因是起草了《零八宪章》，2008年12月8日发表了这个宪章。这个宪章到底是一个什么样的文件，刘晓波在《零八宪章》起草中参与到什么程度。在刘晓波被捕以后，我们采访了普林斯敦大学的著名汉学家林培瑞教授。林教授对《零八宪章》的起草提出了很多意见，美国之音的林森采访了他。我们现在重新播发这个采访，看当时林培瑞是怎么说的。
龚晓夏：林培瑞是知道内情的人。
（播放录音）
林培瑞：它是一个抽象的文件。它没有采取什么行动，也没有说明如何从现在的中国达到我们理想的中国，它只把理想抽象地写出来了。但如果说这只是一个象征性的写法，我也不这么说。这些比较抽象的理想主义的写法，有它的实质作用。而这个宪章，我们的理解是，宪章并不是在求上面，求共产党决策人听我们的意见作些改变，它是在对所有的公民说话，是公民与公民的对话。至于什么时候可以达到这个理想，如何达到，宪章都没有写。它只是说，能不能在大原则上求同存异，达到一个公民与公民之间的了解。
江天：除了《零八宪章》之外，记者还问到，刘晓波被抓，中国政府究竟出于什么什么样的考虑？因为《零八宪章》本身并没有提到要推翻共产党，林培瑞教授当时是这么回答的：
（播放录音）
林培瑞：问题变成，为什么选刘晓波作例子？作逮捕的对象？您说的对，刘晓波过去说的话，很多是当局允许他说的。这里，当局也有它的策略，它摆出一个异议人士，说，你看我们允许他批评我们，这说明了我们的宽容度。这可能是当局的想法。现在拿他当例子逮捕，我看是老办法——杀鸡给猴看。可能因为刘晓波知名度比较大，挑选他来逮捕，以他做例子来吓唬住别人。但是把话说回来，这个问题最好问人家（中共），问我的话我只能推测。
__ __ __
江天：今天讨论的话题是：刘晓波获奖的意义，参加演播的嘉宾是民运领袖魏京生先生和独立评论人士龚晓夏女士。
（观众来电：）
安徽林：魏老师龚老师好。我觉得几十年来刘晓波一直不放弃中国国籍，一直在大陆进行民主运动，刘先生是立场最坚定的爱国者。中国民主就要靠刘先生这样的人才能够真正实现。大家一定要认识到中国的本质和现实。王炳章和高智晟先生的事迹也是可歌可泣的，但是面对中国的现实，刘晓波这种温和的方式，水滴石穿，或许对中共更具有威胁。我呼吁全国的同胞们团结起来，把刘先生获得诺贝尔和平奖这件事当作迎接我们中国民主运动又一次高潮的来临。
福建曹先生：10月8日听说刘晓波获诺贝尔和平奖后，我很兴奋，很高兴，我觉得刘晓波被判刑，这是独裁政府才做的事情。我看过刘先生的一些文章，他经常揭露独裁政府的一些作为，批评政府，希望政府能够进行政治改革。他的这些批评我非常赞同。从科学角度看，共产主义是伪科学，它是对人性的一种破坏，是一种倒行逆施，在经济学上它违反了人的正常经营活动。
江天：刚才我们谈到刘晓波是比较温和的政治主张，那么魏先生您的政治主张和他的有什么区别呢？
魏京生：从1979年开始，我的观点就是对共产党这个体制要作不妥协的斗争，要造成压力，迫使它进行一些改变。刘晓波的主要观点，不是《零八宪章》，而是他们自己宣传的观点，则是要和政府之间有个“良性互动”，要妥协，“共产党不是我们的敌人”。他这么说我们也理解，因为他们身在国内不得不这么说。但是国内很多人并不这么说。国内很多老百姓都知道，共产党就是他们现在受苦受难的根源。在那里说要和共产党妥协和合作，很多人都不太同意他的看法。这方面，他和我们有很大的区别。这便是人家把我们当作激进派，把他当作温和派的主要原因。
江天：你说向中国共产党施加压力。可他们掌握着军队，他们一直说毛泽东的主张是枪杆子里面出政权，也靠枪杆子保政权。他们掌握了军队、警察这些工具。你认为施加压力会有效果吗？
魏京生：当然还有很多利益的考虑，包括为自己将来的担心。现在老百姓的情绪越来越强烈，很多共产党人觉得，如果不搞政治改革，老百姓迟早会被逼得造反。所以党内有很多人主张要赶快改革。这就是在压力下的情形，包括国际压力给共产党造成的很多困扰。中共不得不做些改变。比如说把我放到美国来，这是他们很不愿意做，但不得不做的。老百姓的压力，国际的压力都非常有实际作用，能够促使改变。共产党内部人要求改变，也是出于这类压力，而不是出自他们的情愿。他如果能够享受各种权利，为什么要改变？
江天：晓夏您觉得刘晓波的主张能否行得通？是否有道理？
龚晓夏：这里不是主张问题，我们可能有很多不同的主张。刘晓波《零八宪章》做的最大胆的一件事，就是把人联合起来作为一个组织。目前中国的问题是，不缺想法，想法多得很，而是缺一个体制，让中国出现在一个真正的反对党，让各种不同的意见有地方可以表达。《零八宪章》所作的是走向反对党的第一步。为什么共产党有些人说话很激烈都没事，偏要抓刘晓波呢？因为刘晓波做出了组织行动。哪怕你弄个会来胡聊天也不行，这是组织行动。所以持不同政见是一回事，是否有组织形式又是一回事，这是刘晓波被抓的主要原因。
江天：你的意思是组织起来行动起来，这是共产党最怕的事情。
魏京生：是的。法轮功练练功，根本不谈政治，也要被抓。所以，正在形成一个组织，这的确是刘晓波后来被捕的一个重要原因。刘晓波的朋友都奇怪，说刘晓波这么温和，甚至他写的东西都是上面同意的，怎么还被抓了呢？似乎很冤枉，其实晓夏说到了点子上，就是不管你再温和，你只要形成了组织、把一些人团结在一起，弄成一个要做事的样子，共产党都不允许。
江天：您刚才谈到给中共施加压力。那么签署《零八宪章》本身是不是一种压力呢？
魏京生：按西方的观点，这是老百姓的正常表达方式，但是按共产党的字典来说，这就是反革命组织了。晓夏说的是关键：签署《零八宪章》，搞团体，搞网站，这个共产党认为过线了。
龚晓夏：现在还有一个问题，现在是信息革命的时代，不管一个宪章多温和，拿它做基础，通过网络能把很多人联系结合起来，这确实对共产党是压力和威胁。
魏京生：所以刘晓波被捕本身也说明了，他想跟共产党良性互动合作，这条路走不通。他被捕的时候大家也这么说：你看，他自己说要和共产党良性互动，并且付诸行动，而且还严厉批评其他人（甚至谩骂），可以说对共产党做了很多妥协，但是还是没用。你要想组织起来形成一个和共产党对等的组织的话，那共产党是很聪明的，它绝对不会让你形成。
江天：不仅是组织起来，就是人多一点聚集起来都不行。
魏京生：你就练练气功也不行。最后法轮功被逼上梁山，又是退党，又是九评的。法轮功自己说这不是政治，但是被逼着，他们不得不反共。其实大多数老百姓都是这种情况，都是被共产党逼的。
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江天：我收到几个电子邮件，其中有一些是向您问好。“我们支持民运人士刘晓波获奖。呼吁海外民运领袖保持团结”。
魏京生：其实我和晓夏很多观点都不一样，我们仍然是朋友。
龚晓夏：他可爱吃我做的饭了，这是原因。
魏京生：团结是团结，但重要的时刻也不能不讲原则。就是说，和共产党作斗争，压力是非常重要的，我们希望有一些人出面去和共产党直接交往，比如谈判和妥协。但是同样不能过线。不然妥协了半天又被抓起来了，像刘晓波这样，又有什么意义呢？一些群众斗争中，包括杨佳杀警事件，对共产党的触动都很大。他们很害怕，怕这样下去老百姓要造反，造反了以后情形就不一样了。虽然这些共产党人现在得了很多钱，但人民造反以后会怎么样呢？所以说，共产党内部的压力很大。
对老百姓自发的反抗，我从来不反对。虽然我历来进行和平斗争。我希望中国有一个和平演变。我们现在正在为这个而努力，施加的压力都是为了这个目的。但是老百姓起来反抗，你必须站在老百姓这边，不能去谴责来百姓。刘晓波他们在这点上做得很不好，所以遭到很多人的反对。
江天：他们谴责老百姓吗？
魏京生：他们写文章说杨佳是法西斯（这是余杰的话，但人们把他们划为一拨人）。刘晓波说的也很难听，说这是“原始正义”，不应该的，总之是批评的话，这和老百姓的情绪是抵触的。
龚晓夏：这倒不一定。我觉得余杰和刘晓波，他们都是比较独立的人，不是一个政党，谁也不代表谁说话。我和刘晓波差不多年龄，一代人，我比较可以体会刘晓波对那种无秩序的群众运动的恐惧，这一点我能理解。他们都只是作为个人发表一个言论，并不代表谁。所以，对民运团结问题，我是这样看的，民主运动，本身就是民主，就不是统一的，不是大家意见一致。意见不一致是非常正常的事情。
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湖南张先生：魏先生龚女士你们好。听了刘晓波获奖的事情非常高兴，的确是对中国民主运动一个很大鼓舞。诺贝尔和平奖是世界级大奖，不是一般的奖。所以关心诺贝尔奖的人都会来问为什么这个人会得奖，因此就会来关注《零八宪章》，关注中国民主运动和六四平反。我希望中国政府可以理智对待，尽早释放刘晓波。
湖南王先生：本来民主宪章这件事情对中国来说就是很迫切的。这种追求有上百的历史，从孙中山先生开始。今天我不知道中共当局为何囚禁刘晓波。刘晓波他们的宪章是一个包括了共产党在内的框架，它并没有提出推翻共产党，至少在字面上经得起推敲。连这个都反对，当初共产党会一败涂地的。你的旗帜上若连民主都没有，谁来跟着你们干革命？共产党干了六十年革命了，也载过大跟头，比如文革，不就是因为缺少民主这个根本的东西吗？马克思的共产党宣言，比刘晓波的猛烈许多，可是一百多年前他在欧洲是自由的，并没有被囚禁。因此我对刘晓波这次获奖，认为审委会很有见识，它选择的时机也好。中国的进步大家承认，但是政府到朝鲜和独裁推心置腹就不对头了。
湖北的吕先生：我对魏先生有看法。魏先生说刘晓波有这个问题那个问题，但我从刘晓波的评论中看出他这个人的人格不简单。我觉得他得这个奖非常合适。中国人总要有个主流，有一个代表主流的重量级人物来影响中国。我希望魏先生把歧意放下来，团结起来，这也是告诉中国人如何团结，而不要做一盘散沙。今天我听到中国媒体说，西方现在把诺贝尔奖当作一种工具。不知道你们听到了没有。
江天：我想问一个问题，提到刘晓波说要和中国政府良性互动，这是刘晓波的原话吗？
魏京生：基本上是原话。而且他进了监狱以后还说“没有敌人”，“监狱温馨管理”，这和大家的感受很不一样。也许对他的待遇好一些。但他应该知道，对其他民运人士，包括不是民运人士，维权的、普通老百姓在监狱里的遭遇非常悲惨。看看这些上访的人吧，他们被警察整治得非常惨。刘晓波天天关注这些，应该知道。所以他不应该去歌颂监狱的温馨管理。这一条大家比较反感。
湖北的吕先生提到，大家要团结。其实能不能团结到一起很难说。如果求同存异还行。这些年我和晓波他们的意见是不一样的，他也知道我经常批评他，但他也知道我们团结得很好，他有任何问题我们都要呼吁。刘晓波被捕和判刑后，美国报刊不关注。唯一的文章就是我写的，在纽约时报（国际先驱论坛报、洛杉矶时报、基督教科学箴言报、法国世界报、德国世界报等）等刊登了。所谓团结，我们是要相互帮助，但并不等于说大家要和稀泥。我觉得刘晓波的观点是错误的，他自己的被捕本身就证明了他的观点是错误的。共产党的拦路派是不会轻易妥协的。大家必须在斗争中求团结，而不是在妥协的前提下团结。
江天：你主张给共产党施加压力，推动他们进行政治改革。那么最终的目标是要抛弃共产党、推翻共产党，建立一个多党竞争的体制呢，还是在共产党体制下面来实现推动民主？
魏京生：这一点上我和刘晓波的看法一样——都要在体制外。1989年进行的体制内的斗争，奋斗了那么多年，最后在赵紫阳上遇到巨大挫折。海内国外这点意见是统一的：要有一个体制外的反对党。这非常重要。这点晓夏体会得可能比较深，她现在在美国竞选呢。
龚晓夏：我同意老魏的说法。说在体制内实现民主，这个说法本身就很荒谬。一个体制本身就规定了不能到体制外。不能到体制外，何来民主？所以说，要改就改体制，要改的就是你，怎么可能在你底下改？这不可能。在这一点上，民主人士是有共识的。如果体制内有人要来改，这很好，但不是说有了体制内，就不能有体制外。强调体制内的人不承认体制外，而承认体制外的人，也承认体制内的改革。这是很大的区别。
魏京生：说到妥协，有些人说，老魏你们搞的是不妥协斗争。其实不对，如果压力到了一定程度，像苏联东欧那样，共产党自己就有人跳出来说要进行和平演变，不管用什么手段，必须演变。到那时，我们和党内民主派是站在一起的，没有说不妥协。但是在共产党没有改变的时候，不断地给共产党让步，这等于给共产党减轻负担，放松压力。所以大家对这点很担心。
江天：这么说你们的大目标是一致的。
魏京生：那当然。
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北京丰先生：我很高兴见到魏先生。我对两位分别提两个问题：魏先生是中国民主运动的先驱，在中国坐了很多年牢。您在坐牢期间以及后来很长的时间里并没有获诺贝尔奖，而今天刘晓波却获得了。我想知道您如何看。是否刘晓波的获奖和当前国际国内的形势有关系？
我想问龚晓夏女士一个问题：您提到体制内体制外问题，如果中共出现了几个派别，并且势均力敌，可以在党内进行民主选举的话，这是否相当于类似于西方比如美国的民主党共和党两派的存在？
魏京生：我倒是对他给晓夏提的问题很感兴趣。美国的党也分裂。如果可以分裂，当然是件好事了。并不一定非要我们去当反对党，共产党里面分裂出来一个反对党，那是再好不过的了。
龚晓夏：你不能都替我回答。我在美国参与了一些美国政治。美国两党之间的区别，他们之间的关系，远远不像中国内部不同派别之间的关系那样紧张，没有说见了面就拔刀子捅人家一下。因为大家认同基本的民主和尊重他人的原则。共产党内部如果可以分裂成几个派别的话，如果可以在不同的原则、在对社会发展的反响上，组织形式上都完全不一样，那么就不是一个共产党，而是几个不同的党了。所以我觉得，不管是一个党，两个党，像日本就是一个党、几个派别，最基本的问题是你对社会的前途怎么看。你是否认同这个社会一些很基本的价值观，包括人权、政府权力来自人民等这些基本原则。
魏京生：我回答那个问题，我为什么没得奖。从92年开始我就被提名了。但是共产党的压力一直很大，那个时候国际潮流是支持人民反对共产党的。但是现在经贸关系越来越密切，西方人觉得越来越依靠中国了。现在世界上的潮流是比较认同刘晓波这种和平妥协的方针，他们以为可以像南非那样，通过妥协达成一个比较民主的制度。
龚晓夏：我来替他补充回答这个问题：当初老魏被提名得奖，说明老魏是一个民主的象征。这非常重要。当时很多国家都不民主，许多其他问题占据了显著地位。最近几年中国一边经济改革，一边强调我们的国力有多大，国力有多强，而人权是第二位的。世界就通过把诺奖给正在服刑的刘晓波，来告诉中国人权的重要。其实这个奖也包括老魏的。因为老魏是先驱。（魏京生：没有没有，太过分了）。所以这个奖是给大家的，刘晓波只是个象征。
魏京生：至少一部分西方人的看法改变了，他们认为不一定要推翻共产党，而是希望和平地把共产党的制度改一改。总之他们希望中国比较稳定，以保证他们的商业利益。这是西方人的主流思想。美国国务卿希拉里访问时说，人权不是我们的主要议题。这就释放了非常明确的信号——西方人从商业利益的角度出发，对中国人的人权观念已经改变。
江天：晓夏你同意老魏这个说法吗？
龚晓夏：这个话题说起来有点长。应该说我不同意老魏的说法。商业的利益从来都在，但对于人权、人民，如何管理国家，这些都是西方非常基本的价值观。可能现在有政客会说：我们可以达成某些协议，为某个利益带来好处。但我觉得西方非常基本的价值观念是永存的，不会改变的。
魏京生：这就是西方这些官员，虽然要和中国政府妥协，却不得不谈人权的一个重要原因。晓夏说的是，西方社会老百姓的基本观念，政治家也无法动摇。但是操纵政治的，比如大家批评的大企业对美国政治的操纵超过了老百姓。这么说虽然有些过分，但基本属实。美国对中国人权事务态度的微妙变化，对中国政府越来越妥协，都说明了商业利益越来越大。
龚晓夏：这一点，咱们以后再吵。我是介入美国政治的，我实在不觉得西方政治被大企业把持的。
江天：刚才魏先生谈到西方希望在共产党统治下实现民主改革，这是西方的目标吗？
龚晓夏：我觉得不是目标，而是不得不捏着鼻子接受的一个现实。
江天：就是说接受共产党统治这个现实，然后在这下面推动改革。
魏京生：政治家有一个很艰难的选择，一谈到中国，老百姓最关心的是中国的人权，但是政治家的资助人最关心的是不要影响他们的生意。所以矛盾很大。
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魏京生基金会及中国民主运动海外联席会议以推动中国的人权与民主为己任。
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