Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A592-W360



Release Date: December 7, 2010



Topic: Liu Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future -- Wei Jingsheng's Interview with Korean New Media

标题:刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景 -- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复


Original Language Version: Korean (English version at the beginning, Chinese at the end)



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Liu Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future

-- Wei Jingsheng's Interview with Korean New Media



On December 3, 2010, Wei Jingsheng's interview with Korea's news media was published by www.kukinews.com.  The following is the transcript of Mr. Wei's answers to reporter's questions.


1) You have been criticizing Mr. Liu Xiaobo, a human rights activist who was recently awarded the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize, because he is too understanding of the Chinese Communist Party.  In your point of view, he seems to be a moderate.

-Could you discuss about the meaning of his win? Why now and why Mr. Liu Xiaobo?

-What impact would it make on a political reform in China, Chinese intellectuals, and the civil society in China in the long run as well as in the short run?


Wei Jingsheng: There are a lot of definitions of a "moderate".  Now, the definition we the Chinese people accept is a person who speaks with a bottom line accepted by the Chinese Communists.  Such a person not only advocates cooperation with the Chinese Communist government, but also is against the Chinese people who use force against the Communist tyranny.  This position does not have much difference from the purpose of the "Political Consultative Conference" sponsored by the Chinese Communist Party.  Or, to put it more accurately: these people position themselves between the opposition (or dissidents) and the Communist Party.  Only for the purpose of taking sponsorship from foreigners would they take the risk of calling themselves "dissidents".  Recently, one of them, Wan Yanhai, who was never a part of the Chinese democratic movement yet quite famous stated accurately: "Liu Xiaobo is the best cooperator with the Chinese Communist Party."


This kind of person does get rewarded by the international society.  Just as the Nobel Committee itself has claimed: it gives people a new direction and new style.  In the short run, they will reduce both the Chinese people's opposition and international opposition to the Chinese Communist Party.  The result will be that China loses or delays its opportunity for peaceful evolution.  However, all this cooperation will soon lose its deception, with no long-term effects.

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2) Could you describe the human rights record and freedom of speech and press in China?  Seemingly, things are getting better in China even though not as fast as you hope.  At least, they insist so.  How much do you think political freedom such as free speech and human rights in China has improved over the last ten years?


Wei Jingsheng: On the surface, Westerners are talking about the Chinese human rights record and freedom of expression and freedom of the press getting better.  That is because the international media is also gradually sealed by the Chinese Communist Party's money campaign.  In reality, the suppression by the Chinese Communist government is getting more severe than before.  The situation is worsening, instead of improving.  Thirty years ago when I was sent to prison, I did not receive the kind of cruel torture given to Gao Zhisheng and Guo Feixiong, despite Deng Xiaoping asking to give me the worst treatment.  These cases prove that the Chinese human rights condition is going backwards, not forwards.  The fact that Liu Xiaobo received favored treatment only proves that he is not the enemy of the Communist Party; it does not prove that the treatment of political prisoners are improved.

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3) Recently, farmers, workers and migrant workers have started to claim their rights.  Grassroots people who have been neglected and repressed for a long time suddenly realized they could make their voice heard in the street.

-What are their conditions like economically and politically?

-Some hopeful western scholars expect them to change the Chinese political system.  What do you think of their role in the political reform or democratization in China?  Do you think they can play a leading part in the Chinese social reform?


Wei Jingsheng: It is not because "grassroots people who have been neglected and repressed for a long time suddenly realize they could make their voice heard in the street."  It is because people gradually realized the stubbornness of the Chinese Communist Party and thus gave up their illusion of peaceful evolution.  So, Liu Xiaobo is needed to guide people to return to their waiting stage of "peaceful, rational, non-violence."  Before Liu Xiaobo got the prize, people like him had very little influence.  Even his neighbors mistakenly thought it was the well-known movie star Ms. Liu Xiaoqing who won the award.  The Nobel Peace Committee wishes his award will help to increase his influence.  This hope can be achieved partially.


After thirty years of the spreading of democratic ideas, the Chinese people not only ready to fight for their economic rights and interests, but also clearly desire for a change of the political system.  So, even within the Chinese Communist Party a discussion of political reform has started.  The shared wish of the Chinese people is the best guidance for China's future.  Even if there is an attempt to change that direction by some Western countries, it will not have any effect.

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4) There have been some arguments for a political reform inside the Chinese Communist Party.  Lately, Wen Jiabao, the Chinese Premier, repeatedly emphasized political reform.  The People's Daily openly refuted him.  Do you believe there are meaningful internal discords and different views within the Chinese Communist Party?  What do you think of Mr. Wen Jiabao's proposal?


Wei Jingsheng: Some within the ruling class in China who have already earned a lot of money are hoping for a peaceful evolution instead of the more likely violent revolution.  This is because the violent revolution could cause them to lose everything.  Premier Wen Jiabao could be their representative.  They are forming a small political faction.  But the vast majority of people within the interest groups in China will not accept these people's views.  The lower and middle officials and their relatives do not believe there will be a good result from peaceful evolution.  They believe in more repression.  Without enough international and domestic pressure, good intentions alone cannot make the varieties of tyrants, large and small, give up the power.  South Korea's "Sunshine Policy" is a good proof:  Kim Jong Il did not make the slightest improvement.

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5) China has successfully integrated wealth and power.  It has embraced the private sector and succeeded in winning intellectuals and capitalists over.  As a result, the Chinese elite no longer wants to undertake their duty as critics.  Why do you think they are so easily incorporated into the Chinese political system?  What do you think is their role to improve the Chinese political and social situation?


Wei Jingsheng: The wealth and power is not being integrated, but it was all in one to start with.  Wealth comes from power.  This result is the characteristic of the bureaucratic capitalism.  After the June 4 Tiananmen Massacre in 1989, the Chinese Communist Party implemented a new policy of combining the three kinds of "political, economic, and cultural" elites.  This policy was used two thousand years ago when the Han Wu Emperor bought out all the intellectuals.  Because of the traditional Chinese culture of "using excellent learning to make an official," also because of the very significant differences between these interests in comparison to prison and surrender, most of the so-called intellectuals choose to be the dependents of the Communist government.  So the average folks call these so-called intellectuals "knowing elements."  The role of dependency is not so clear.  Some may be the vampire victims who came around to suck the blood of the next victims.  Some may do nothing.  However, there are a few intellectuals who inherited the traditional Chinese culture of different elements: having courage and daring to sacrifice themselves.  They are willing to take risks for ideology and social responsibility, to lead the people against tyranny.  These people are the true stars, producers and directors of China's future politics.

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6) What does democratizing China (or Chinese democracy) mean to you ?  Does it mean to employ a western-style political system such as multi-party democracy, checks and balances?  Or do you believe there can be a different way, a Chinese way to the democratic society?

-What are the prerequisite conditions for Chinese democracy?

-What is the possibility for China and the Chinese people to gain freedom?

-Which way do you think China should or can take to reach the goal?


Wei Jingsheng: China's democratic future will be the same as in Western countries: a specific system may vary, but the basic principles of democracy cannot be different.  Otherwise, it would be the false democracy of the Communist Party.  The most important prerequisites for democracy are free speech, free association, and a multi-party system.  After more than a century of strife and more than three decades of re-education of democratic ideas, the Chinese people know their goal very clearly.  It will only be an issue of time and opportunity for the Chinese people gain their freedom.  Peaceful evolution is what most people hope for.  However, if those in authority, along with the intellectual class bought out by the Chinese authority, and the international community, block that hope, then violent revolution becomes inevitable in China.

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7) Some Chinese people view Liu Xiaobo's win as a political action to attack China.  Nationalism is intentionally promoted and encouraged by the government and the media.  In some ways, it is true though.  Global powers are using Chinese dissidents as a weapon for negotiation.  What kind of impact do you think nationalism has on Chinese democracy?


Wei Jingsheng: "Global powers are using Chinese dissidents as a weapon for negotiation."  This action is usually for their own interests.  The Chinese Communist government has learned from the Deng Xiaoping era about sharing the interests of exploiting the Chinese people with the big businesses in the West.  So, unlike what had happened in South Korea, for our Chinese people the possibility of getting strong support from the international community is getting smaller and smaller.


Nationalism is a double-edged sword.  It might strengthen authoritarian rule, it may undermine authoritarian rule.

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8) What are the Wei Jingsheng Foundation's recent activities and future plans?  What is the situation of Chinese political activists outside China?


Wei Jingsheng: Our foundation's main activities will be as always: to promote the international community's concern for Human Rights in China, and to give ideological guidance to the opposition movement inside China.  The Chinese opposition movement overseas is very similar to what the South Koreans had before, but has more difficulty.  Back then, the dictators of South Korea did not have much experience in undercover work; its skills were far below that of the Chinese Communist Party, even below that of Kim Jong Il.

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9) China is a very important partner to South Korea in the region economically and politically.  Especially we South Koreans have to deal with North Korea.  China is the most important partner and player in the game.

-What do you think Chinese democracy means to South Korea?  What influence would it have on Northeast Asia?

-Of late China is taking more aggressive and tough diplomatic approaches.  What is your opinion about its unyielding tactics?  What do you think they are aiming for by that?


Wei Jingsheng: China is not "the most important partner and player in the game".  It is not a game either.  Games have rules.  The policy of Beijing and Pyongyang is to break the rules, to murder and to invade.  Like the goal of the Kim Jong Il regime, the ultimate goal for the Chinese Communists in Beijing is to eliminate all non-Communist governments in East Asia.  Not only because both Pyongyang and Beijing are Communist, but more because the existence of democracy is the biggest threat to these tyrannies.  To one side, the Communist Party is using a two faced policy which will determine life and death; to the other side, people believe that it is a game with every party following rules.  This is the root cause why China and North Korea keep winning in this so-called "games".


Democratization of China will completely change this setup.  Only in dealing with a reasonable democratic country it is possible to have peaceful competition under the rules.  To talk about rules with tyrants is impossible and unrealistic, as described by the Chinese proverb: "climbing the tree to get fish", or "negotiating with the tiger to get its skin".  



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Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A592-W360



Release Date: December 7, 2010



Topic: Liu Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future -- Wei Jingsheng's Interview with Korean New Media

标题:刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景 -- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复


Original Language Version: Korean (English version at the beginning, Chinese at the end)









-- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复





1)  您批评最近被授予2010年诺贝尔和平奖的人权活动家刘晓波先生,因为他太理解中共。从你的角度来看,他是温和派。

-- 您能否谈谈对他得奖的意义?为什么是刘晓波先生?为什么现在他得?

-- 他得奖会对中国的政改、中国知识分子、及民间社会在长期与短期内会有什么影响?





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3)  最近,农民、工人和农民工开始要求他们的权利。被忽视和压抑了很久的基层的人们突然意识到他们可以使他们的声音在街上听到。

-- 他们有什么样经济上和政治上的条件?

-- 一些乐观的西方学者期望他们改变中国的政治制度。你怎么看他们在中国的政治改革或民主化中的角色?你认为他们能在中国社会改革中起一个领导角色?


魏京生:并不是“被忽视和压抑了很久的基层的人们突然意识到他们可以使他们的声音在街上听到”。而是人们逐渐认识到了共产党的顽固性,放弃了等待和平演变的幻想。所以现在需要刘晓波这样的角色来引导人们回到“和平理性非暴力” 的等待状态。在刘晓波获奖之前,刘晓波这类人的影响力非常小。甚至他的邻居都误以为是电影明星刘晓庆获奖。诺贝尔评奖委员会希望他获奖能够增加影响力。这个希望能够部分实现。



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-- 什么是中国民主的前提条件?

-- 中国和中国人民有可能获得自由吗?

-- 你认为中国应该或可以采取哪种方式达到目标?



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-- 你认为中国的民主对韩国意味着什么?对东北亚将是什么样的影响?

-- 近来中国正在采取更强硬和有进攻性的外交手段。你对它们不示弱的战术是什么看法?你觉得它们这么做的目的是什么?














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