Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A700-W438
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A700-W438
Release
Date: April 8, 2012
发布日：2012年4月8日
Topic:
Wei Jingsheng: Political Upheaval in China Significant -- Overseas democracy
groups discussing the fall of the Chinese Communist Party (the Epoch Times)
标题：魏京生：中国政治动荡的意义 -- 海外民运组织讨论中国共产党的垮台 （英文大纪元报道）
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Wei
Jingsheng: Political Upheaval in China Significant
--
Overseas democracy groups discussing the fall of the Chinese Communist Party
By
Shar Adams, Epoch Times Staff
March
30, 2012
WASHINGTON-In
1997, after suffering a total of 18 years of torture and detention for pursuing
democracy in China, activist Wei Jingsheng was suddenly released and exiled to
America; a result of negotiations by then-President Bill Clinton. Today he is
the most recognized Chinese human rights and democracy activist, a winner of
many human rights awards and chairman of the Overseas Chinese Democracy
Coalition. He now lives in Washington, D.C., and spoke with The Epoch Times
about significant political upheavals presently occurring in China.
The
Epoch Times: Mr. Wei, How do you view the events going on in China now after
former Chongqing chief of police, Wang Lijun's attempted defection at the U.S.
Consulate, the sacking of Chongqing Party chief Bo Xilai, and the
marginalization of Zhou Yongkang, head of the Political and Legislative Affairs
Committee (PLAC) and member of the Politburo Standing Committee?
Wei
Jingsheng: Initially, the conflict within the Chinese Communist Party was just
the normal daily stuff; they do this all the time, this infighting. The issue
is with this person, Wang Lijun, running into the American Consulate. Now the
whole issue has become publicized and even escalated, so now it affects the
rule of the Communist Party.
Epoch
Times: Was there a coup and a push to stop Xi Jinping from becoming the next
leader?
Mr.
Wei: Yes. It is also because of this that Zhou Yongkang's relationship with Xi
Jinping has deteriorated, which affects the whole picture of the Communist
leadership.
Epoch
Times: How do you understand the current position of the Zhou Yongkang faction?
Mr.
Wei: Jiang Zemin's faction has already started falling apart. There are some
people with new thoughts and some people are still old-fashioned-they are even
split within themselves. So now, even within their factions it becomes very
tricky and different people move to different sides. This situation we call it
"reshuffling of the cards."
It
is very complicated. Zhou has been in charge of this PLAC for a long time.
Under this committee he is in charge of the police, the armed police, the
court, and also the prosecutor. But now he is in trouble, or even before he is
in trouble, some people are already not willing to listen to him. In
particular, one of the branches of the strong military police has not listened
to him and the head of that branch is a close associate to Xi Jinping, so of
course he would not listen to Zhou. However the official commander of the
military police belongs to Zhou Yongkang. So now with this complication, Hu
Jintao is very nervous that there will be riots or a coup attempt out of this.
Epoch
Times: Is this the end of Zhou Yongkang's career?
Mr.
Wei: Yes, it is coming to the end point, but he may make a last strike for his
life. So Hu Jintao is really worried because if Zhou makes a last strike and
there is indeed a coup, then it will be very hard to control.
Epoch
Times: What kind of last strike could Zhou Yongkang attempt?
Mr.
Wei: To the Chinese people, this is described as "using a corn stalk to
beat up a wolf." The wolf is scared and you are very scared too
[laughing]. So it is very hard to predict what the final result will be. As a
matter of fact, nobody is sure who controls which branch of the army and there
is a rumor that Zhou Yongkang has already arrested the relatives of Premier Wen
Jiabao. So now you don't know what will come out of this mess. But from our
perspective, regardless of who beats up who, when the Communist Party is in
chaos it is likely for the better.
Our
strategy is let the Communist Party have its internal fights, then they are
weakened and they will collapse themselves. Our goal is the dissolution of the
Communist Party.
Epoch
Times: Taken that it is difficult to get the facts about what is going on in
China, how important is rumor as a source of information?
Mr.
Wei: In a country where the correct information is blocked intentionally, then
rumor becomes a more reliable source of information than no information at all.
Just like the saying: "If I can't have the best food, I will not eat
anything at all." Well then, this person might as well starve.
Epoch
Times: What should the Chinese people seek after the CCP ends?
Mr.
Wei: The goal for the Chinese people is very clear: we want a democratic system
similar to Western countries. They may not have to be as specific as what
democracy is or how it would be.
It is like they want apples; they want to eat apples. Apples look like
the Westerner's, but which variety and what color, that is not really as
important. After you get apples, you get a clearer idea which kind of apple you
prefer, but right now there are no apples for them to eat.
Epoch
Times: How do you think Chinese democracy will be different from in the West?
Mr.
Wei: I think a Chinese democracy
will most likely be in the form of the United States and maybe even Britain,
which is a democracy from the bottom up.
Epoch
Times: Will people be searching for traditional Chinese culture and values?
Mr.
Wei: For sure they will be. For
there will be elements of Chinese culture and Chinese tradition because with a
bottom up democracy, for sure the Chinese people will bring their own elements
of traditional culture into this system. So it is unavoidable.
Epoch
Times: Will people in the Communist Party be held accountable? Is that going to
be important?
Mr.
Wei: For sure. They will be held
accountable, but what degree of accountability will depend on what China will
look like down the road. ... Under this circumstance many past crimes maybe
would be forgiven for the sake of the stability of society. But if the
Communist Party refuses to reform now, then we will have riots and those
communist officials, who people have hated, probably will not have a very good
outcome.
Epoch
Times: Can you see any potential future leaders of China?
Mr.
Wei: This is difficult to say at this time. ... All Chinese people demand
democracy, so regardless of who that person is, they should be someone who will
follow the people's call, who will help establish a democratic system. So this
is part of it for sure.
A
few days ago we had a big meeting together, a global conference of leaders of
the democratic movement for China in Williamsburg, Virginia. One person said,
'Oh Mr. Wei your character is too strong, you are not suitable to be the
president of China in the future.' Then another person said, 'I am not worried.
If [Wei] is not suitable, I will vote him down' (laughter).
Epoch
Times: Are you looking forward to going back to China or are you comfortable
here?
Mr.
Wei: For anybody who returns to
their homeland, that will be the best time for him-staying in someone else's
home is never as comfortable.
The
interview was conducted through a translator, Mr. Wei's assistant Huang Ciping.
Link
for the original article:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/wei-jingsheng-political-upheaval-in-china-significant-212982.html
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A700-W438
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A700-W438
Release
Date: April 8, 2012
发布日：2012年4月8日
Topic:
Wei Jingsheng: Political Upheaval in China Significant -- Overseas democracy
groups discussing the fall of the Chinese Communist Party (the Epoch Times)
标题：魏京生：中国政治动荡的意义 -- 海外民运组织讨论中国共产党的垮台 （英文大纪元报道）
Original
Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2012/report2012-04/WeiJSinterview120408EpochTimesA700-W438.htm
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魏京生：中国政治动荡的意义
-- 海外民运组织讨论中国共产党的垮台
英文大纪元记者Shar Adams报道
１９９７年，由于诉求中国民主而遭受了１８年监禁和折磨的魏京生先生，突然被释放并流亡到美国。这是当时的美国总统比尔克林顿（和中国政府）协商的结果。如今，魏京生先生是最被公认的中国人权和民主活动家。他曾多次获得世界级人权奖励，并担任中国民主运动海外联席会议主席。他现居华盛顿。在大纪元时报的采访中，他谈论了中国正在出现的重大政治动荡。
大纪元：魏先生，你怎么看待重庆公安局局长王立军事件以后的中国现状？从王立军到美国领馆试图叛逃，到重庆市委书记薄熙来的下台，以及中央政治局常委、中共中央政法委书记周永康的边缘化？
魏京生：首先，中共党内的矛盾是家常便饭，他们总是这样内斗。不过这次的问题是，王立军跑到美国领馆去了。现在，整个事件公开化而且升级，以致影响到共产党的统治。
大纪元：是否有个政变和推动，意在阻止习近平成为下届领导人？
魏京生：是的。那也是由于周永康和习近平关系恶化了，因此影响到整个共产党的领导层。
大纪元：你如何理解周永康派系目前的处境？
魏京生：江泽民派系已经解体。有些人有新想法，而有些人还固守旧念--他们内部甚至分化。现在，即使在他们自己的派系里，事情也开始变得棘手。不同的人们向不同的方向移动。这个情形我们称作"洗牌"。
情况非常复杂。周长期以来掌管中共中央政法委，以此控制着警察、武警、法院和检察院。现在他有麻烦了，甚至在他有麻烦之前，有些人已经不想听他的指挥。特别是武警部门中的一支不想听他调遣，而那头头和习近平非常亲近，理所当然地就不那么顺从周。但周是武警的正式指挥官。所以由于现在这个复杂性，胡锦涛很紧张，害怕暴乱或政变。
大纪元：这会导致周永康丢弃官位吗？
魏京生：是的，周的末日快到了。但他也许会做垂死挣扎。所以胡锦涛很担心，因为如果周做最后挣扎并带来政变，局面就难以控制。
大纪元：周永康会做什么样的垂死挣扎？
魏京生： 我们中国人说："用玉米杆打狼-两头怕"。狼害怕，你也很害怕（笑）。所以很难预料最终的结果。事实上，没有人肯定谁控制着那一部分的军队。有谣传说周永康已经逮捕了温家宝的亲戚。所以谁也不知道这个烂摊子会出现什么结果。但从我们的角度看，不管谁打败谁，中共的混乱多半是好事。
我们的策略是让中国共产党内斗，然后他们就变得虚弱，自己整垮自己。我们的目标就是让共产党解体。
大纪元：因为很难知道中国目前的实际情况，传言作为信息的来源有多重要？
魏京生：在一个正确的消息被存心封锁的国家，相对于毫无信息，谣传就成了比较可靠的消息来源。如果有人说："要是吃不到最好的食物，我就不吃饭。"那那个人就得饿死。
大纪元：共产党统治结束以后，中国人民将要寻求什么？
魏京生： 中国人民的目标十分清楚：我们要一个和西方国家类似的民主体系。不一定是哪种民主，或何种形式。就像是大家要苹果，想吃苹果。看起来像西方的苹果就好了，品种颜色并不那么重要。得到苹果以后，人们才有了更清楚的认识，究竟什么样的苹果是自己更喜欢的。而现在根本没有苹果可吃。
大纪元：你认为中国民主将和西方民主有所不同吗？
魏京生：我认为中国民主的形式最可能和美国甚至英国的差不多，即自下到上的民主。
大纪元：人们会寻求中国传统文化和价值观吗？
魏京生：那当然。自下到上的民主结构，肯定会包含中国文化和传统的因素，中国人民肯定会把中国传统文化的因素带到这系统里。这是不可避免的。
大纪元：共产党里的人是否会被追究？而这个追究是不是很重要？
魏京生：肯定会被追究。但是追究的程度要看中国局势如何发展。目前情形下，为了社会的稳定，许多过去的罪行会被原谅。但是如果中国共产党现在拒绝改革，那么将会有骚乱，那些老百姓痛恨的共产党官员就不会有什么好下场了。
大纪元：谁会是中国可能的未来领导人呢？
魏京生：这现在很难说。所有中国人都要求民主，所以不管这个未来领导人是谁，他都要按照人民的意愿去行事，他都要帮助建立民主体制。这一点是肯定的。
几天前我们在维吉尼亚州威廉斯堡有个重要会议，这是全球中国民运领袖的联席会议。会上有人说："老魏，你个性太强，不适合当中国未来的总统。"接着有人说："我不担心，如果老魏不适合，我就把他选下来好了"（笑）。
大纪元：你盼望回国吗？或是觉得呆在这里舒服？
魏京生：对每个人而言，回到自己的家乡都是最好的。呆在别人的家里从来就不会那么舒服。
采访通过魏京生先生的助手黄慈萍作翻译。
文章的原始连接：
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/wei-jingsheng-political-upheaval-in-china-significant-212982.html
（魏京生基金会感谢程以克翻译本文，并感谢她多年来的义务劳动及其它重要贡献。）
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