Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A774-W492
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A774-W492
Release
Date: August 4, 2013
发布日：2013年8月4日
Topic:
Wei Jingsheng and Ai Weiwei Talk About Dreams for China (Voice of America)
标题：魏京生与艾未未谈中国梦(美国之音)
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Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
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Wei
Jingsheng and Ai Weiwei Talk About Dreams for China
--
by Natalie Liu, Voice of America
05.07.2013
WASHINGTON-
The German magazine Der Speigel recently asked Chinese artist and activist Ai
Weiwei: The newly appointed President of China, Xi Jinping said that he has a
dream for China: greater prosperity, a better environment, and more people
living in dignity, what is your dream for China?
To
this, Ai Weiwei replied, "That is very simple: give those without rights
or power the right of speech, give them a right to vote. If this is not
possible right now, give the people a statement (a timetable), tell everyone
that they will have the right to vote in ten days, or ten months or perhaps ten
years in the future. Do not tell everyone that, your current life is already
the best in the world that can't be better."
Wei
Jingsheng lived in China for decades and now fights for Chinese democracy from
overseas while exiled in the USA. When Wei was interviewed by Voice of America
recently, he spoke about his own China dream. "In fact, those of us grown
up from the seventies have been making a Chinese dream. Frankly speaking,
everyone has a dream: we all want more respect, a more prosperous life, and
each of our rights guaranteed."
* The
Meaning of Suffrage: Watershed *
Wei
Jingsheng also stated that one of Ai Weiwei's points is that we must fight for
the right to vote. To Wei, this makes a lot of sense. "Suffrage, meaning
that everyone has the right to select their leaders in all levels, is extremely
important. It reflects that in the end, either the government is controlled by
the ordinary people or by a dictatorial regime of a small number of people.
This is a fundamental divide."
Wei
Jingsheng said that the right to vote actually contains many parts including
freedom of speech, which is very important. "If there is no freedom of
speech, there is no way of knowing the actual facts, so how do we make a
choice? If there is only one type of item in the market, how can you make a
selection?"
When
Ai Weiwei was interviewed by Der Speigel he said that the outside world has an
oversimplified view of China's state of affairs. This is because there is no
free press. Ai gave a modern example: Chinese people to this day cannot freely
exchange ideas regarding affairs in Tibet and Xinjiang.
* Inspirational
and Institutional Limitations *
Speaking
of the past and present of China's Communist Party, Ai Weiwei said,
"Eighty Years ago, when the Communist Party barely started, it obtained
massive support of the people and it was very easy to establish a new
government. However, the articles that were able to be published before 1949
cannot be published at the present time. Why? Because at that time (before
1949) the Communist Party itself said that it was establishing a democratic
society with freedom of speech and human rights. The people of China are very
patient. However, those in power betrayed everyone."
"
In
this regard, Wei Jingsheng said, "Impartially speaking, in that period of
time inside the Communist Party there was a relatively large group of people
that sincerely wanted to set up a democracy. They believed that ordinary people
could handle a democracy and wanted to give ordinary people the chance to have
a good life."
However,
Wei Jingsheng noted that the nature of the Communist Party itself is the
"dictatorship of the proletariats (as described by the Communists
themselves)." Therefore, the regime is inevitably destined to be an
authoritarian dictatorship. This fundamentally makes it impossible to form a
democracy. "In this sense, a lot of people who participated in
establishing the Communist regime were deceived as well. They are also
extremely dissatisfied with the current situation. China has been going back and
forward. After all the bleeding
and sacrifice, it comes around with a false democracy finally -- an artificial
democracy which is really a dictatorship.
This is what everyone is most discontented with.
In
his interview with Der Spiegel, Ai Weiwei spoke of the current situation in
Chinese society, which is in a crisis of confidence. People have already lost
confidence in a lot of areas, including many types of products, the educational
system, and more.
Wei
Jingsheng said in his interview with Voices of America that "After going
through a bumpy 60 years, particularly with the implementation of a capital
system now, it is very hard for the nation to continue." He said, in this
context, ordinary people and a considerable number of Party members have now
recognized that in order for a person to survive and prosper, this nation must
move forward on the path to democracy. Otherwise normal order will be
impossible.
* Democracy
and Order *
The
Communist Party and much of the world have always publicly insisted that,
"democracy in China would mean turmoil and chaos." In response to
this argument Wei Jingsheng said, "At the present time regarding the
social order, the best nations are those that are democratic and the worst
countries are almost all authoritarian. This is a very obvious
comparison."
* People
and System *
A
question was raised in Ai Weiwei's interview with Der Spiegel: Will those who
replace the people in the Communist Party be better than the Communist Party?
To
this, Ai Weiwei replied, "There is no guarantee, and this is why we need
artists. People often ask me: When China finally has democracy, then what will
you do? My answer is: I will continue to fight, because only in this way, can
we explore if there is new paths and possibilities."
Wei
Jingsheng said in his VOA interview that those who replace the Communist Party
"do not have to be saints and we must not count on them to be good people.
What we can hope for, is the system of democracy."
Wei
Jingsheng pointed out that the key is not to specifically say that we want
specific people to come forward and ban the Communist Party, the key is to
demand a democratic system and ban the one party dictatorship.
Wei
said, "Even though you use former officials, as in Taiwan, as soon as a
democratic system is put into place, those old officials still make up the
government. Even now (after so many years), it is still the same
situation."
Wei
Jingsheng said, in Taiwanese political circles at the present time the KMT (KuoMinTang
Nationalist Party) has many officials who are still those people who had power
in the past. However, in comparison with the former one-party dictatorship or
when one party had significant power, these officials' behavior now is much
different. The reason is due to
the democratic system which provides effective checks and balances, with the
most noticeable being the existence of an opposition party.
* Every
Country Has Good and Bad People *
Wei
said, "Relying on people changing for the better, or saying that the
Communists are superior to Americans so they do not need an opposition party as
a check in power, is total nonsense.
Every country has good people and bad people. Human nature is greedy. In
America, government officials are also not necessarily better than Communist
Party officials. Everyone is greedy. We ourselves are also the same. But the
difference is that you are restricted by the system and you cannot be greedy
without a limit or boundary."
Wei
Jingsheng emphasized that there must be an opposition party. If not,
"cover-ups, or, using the language of ordinary people, 'using a thief to
keep an eye on the thieves' will not work". "Citizens must form an
opposition party among themselves, and to use the opposition party to supervise
the government (of the ruling party). After that, the political parties can
alternate holding power. Only with this ‘threat’, the government officials will
earnestly carry out the rule."
* Truth
and the Sun *
On
the other hand, in his interview with Der Spiegel, Ai Weiwei was asked why he
continues to want to make a stand and continue his fight. Ai responded,
"The world I live in and the world others live in is closely linked. How
can I pretend to be unaware of what is happening in the outside
world?"
Ai
Weiwei said that several days before, he watched a NASA produced video of the
sun and was deeply moved by the video. "NASA spent many years making this
one video but the actual recording is only about three minutes long. After
watching it I realized that the more one thinks of some things, the simpler the
most fundamental concepts and meaning become.'
Original
link of this report:
http://www.voachinese.com/content/wei-jinghsheng-and-ai-weiwei-20130508/1656676.html#hash=relatedInfoContainer
Related
photo: Wei Jingsheng (photo credit: Wei Jingsheng Foundation) and Ai WeiWei
(photo credit: Artspeackchina.org)
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2013/newsletters2013-3/WeiJS&AiWWonChinaDream130508VOAreport.jpg
(The
Wei Jingsheng Foundation expresses its gratitude for Jill Lavine’s contribution
to the translation of this English version.)
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A774-W492
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A774-W492
Release
Date: August 4, 2013
发布日：2013年8月4日
Topic:
Wei Jingsheng and Ai Weiwei Talk About Dreams for China (Voice of America)
标题：魏京生与艾未未谈中国梦(美国之音)
Original
Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2013/report2013-08/WeiJS&AiWWonChinaDream130804VOAreportA774-W492.htm
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魏京生与艾未未谈中国梦
-- 美国之音记者:燕青
05.07.2013
华盛顿 — 德国[明镜]周刊(Der Spiegel)日前在对中国艺术家兼活动人士艾未未进行采访期间问到：新上任的国家主席习近平说他对中国有一个梦想：更多的繁荣，更好的环境，人们都活得有尊严，请问，你的中国梦是什么呢？
对此，艾未未回答说：“非常简单：给那些没权没势的人正当的发言权，给他们投票的权利；要是认为现在做不到的话，给大家一个说法(一个时间表)，告诉大家到底是十天以后，还是十个月以后，或者是十年以后，就有投票权了。别告诉大家说，你们现在过的生活已经是全世界再好不过的了。"
过去几十年里长期在中国国内，在海外为中国的民主事业而奔走、目前流亡在美国的魏京生在接受美国之音采访，谈到自己的“中国梦”时说：“其实我们从七十年代成长起来以后，就在做着中国梦。实际上说起来，每个人心里都有一个梦，都是想得到更多的尊重，生活得更富裕，各项权利有保障。”
*投票权的意义：分水岭*
魏京生还表示，艾未未讲的一定要争取投票权这一点，非常有道理。“投票权、也就是每个人对国家各级领导人选择的权利，非常重要，这反映的是这个政权到底是老百姓控制的，还是少数人的独裁政权；这是一个根本的划分。”
魏京生说，投票权其实包涵了很多的内容，其中言论自由是非常重要的。“如果没有言论自由，不知道真相，那如何做出选择？商场里面如果只有一种东西，你能有什么样的选择？”
艾未未在接受德国[明镜]周刊采访的时候表示，外界对中国的局势过于简单化了的看法，究其根源，是因为没有信息的自由流通。他举例说，中国民众至今都不能在西藏或者是新疆问题上自由交换意见。
*初衷与制度的局限*
在谈到中国共产党的过去和现在的时候，艾未未说：“共产党80年前刚开始的时候，得到了民众的那么多的支持，很容易就成立新的政府了。而如今，1949年以前能够发表的文章，现在都发表不了。为什么呢？因为那时候(1949年以前)，共产党他们自己说是要建立一个民主社会，要有言论自由，要有人权。""中国人民很有耐性，但是那些掌权的，背叛了大家。"
就此，魏京生表示：“客观地说，那个时候，共产党里有相当大的一批人，是真心诚意想搞一个民主政治，想为老百姓搞出一个民主政治，让老百姓能过上好日子。”
但是，魏京生指出，共产党本身的性质、就是说它的“无产阶级专政”的性质，注定了它的政权必然是一个独裁政治，而不可能是民主政治。“从这个意义上讲，很多参与建立共产党政权的人，也属于是被骗了，他们目前也是对现状非常不满。中国走来走去，大家流血牺牲，最后弄出一个假的民主政治，一个假民主、真独裁的政治，这是大家最不满的。”
艾未未在接受[明镜]周刊采访时，谈到中国社会现状时说，中国社会目前处于信任危机状态，民众对各种产品，对教育体制，等等，都已经失去信心。
魏京生星期一(5月7日)在接受美国之音采访的时候说："经过前面60年的磕磕绊绊，特别是现在实行的资本主义制度，国家已经难以为继。"他说，在这个前提下，当前不仅仅是普通的百姓，甚至相当多的共产党人，现在已经认识到了，为了个人和他人的生存和利益，这个国家必须要走上民主的道路，否则不可能有正常的秩序。
*民主与秩序*
在谈到中国共产党、以及外部世界一些舆论一直坚持的“民主在中国意味着动乱或者是混乱”这种说法时，魏京生说：“现在世界上秩序最好的国家，都是民主国家。相反，秩序最不好的国家，几乎全是独裁专制的国家；这一点是非常明显的比较。”
*人与制度*
德国[明镜]周刊在采访艾未未的时候，提到的一个问题是：取代共产党的那些人会比共产党更好吗？
对此，艾未未回答说：“没有保证，而这正是为什么需要有艺术家。人们常常问我：中国最终民主了，你到时候还干什么呢？我的回答是：我会继续抗争下去；因为只有这样，才会寻求是否有其他的路径和可能。”
魏京生在接受美国之音采访的时候说，取代共产党的那些人，“不会是圣人，也不要指望他们都是好人。我们指望的，是制度。”
魏京生指出，关键不是说具体要由哪些人来取缔共产党，关键是要由民主制度来取缔一党专制的制度。
魏京生说：“哪怕你用原来这些官员，跟台湾似的，一开始建立民主制度的时候，所启用的那些官员不都是原来的老官僚么!甚至现在也一样。"
魏京生说，在台湾政坛，国民党目前很多官员，还是过去那班人马，但是跟过去一党独裁、或者说是一党独大的体制和局面下相比，这些官员如今的“表现”则大有不同，原因仍然是回归到民主制度下，因为有了以反对党的存在为主的有效的制衡机制。
*"每个国家里的人都有好有坏"*
魏京生说：“靠人变好了，或者说是共产党人比美国人更优秀，因此而不用反对党来监督，这是完全没有道理，因为全世界的人都是差不多的。每个国家里的人都有好有坏，人性也都是贪婪的。
美国这些官员，也不见得比共产党那些官员'人'更好，大家都是贪婪的，我们自己也都一样，但是区别是，有制度在那里限制你，就使得你不能够无限度、无止境地贪婪下去。"
魏京生强调一定要有反对党的存在，否则“官官相护，用老百姓的话说，用贼来看贼”，是行不通的。“公民当中必须组成反对党，并由反对党去监督政府(执政党)，然后可以轮流执政，在这个'威胁'下，政府官员才会认真地把制度执行下去。"
*太阳与真理*
另一方面，在回答[明镜]周刊有关为什么要持续抗争的问题时，艾未未说："我生活的世界和他人的世界是紧密相连的；我怎么能对外界发生的事，假装不知道呢？"
艾未未说，他几天前看过一部由美国航空航天局(NASA)制作的有关太阳的录像，不无感慨："NASA花了好多年制作这个录像，但是实际做成的录像，只有三分多钟的时间。我看了以后意识到，一些事情，想得越久，它的最基本的概念和内涵就变得愈加简单了。
报道的原始网页:
http://www.voachinese.com/content/wei-jinghsheng-and-ai-weiwei-20130508/1656676.html#hash=relatedInfoContainer
相关图片:魏京生(图片来自：魏京生基金会)与艾未未(图片来自：Artspeackchina.org)
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2013/newsletters2013-3/WeiJS&AiWWonChinaDream130508VOAreport.jpg
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